Knights & Knaves Alehouse

How would you resolve this? Non-issue because grievous wounds are "after the fact" descriptions used when someone's already dead? What if you wanted to include them as part of what happens when you "go negative"?

If someone's arm gets cut off, in general, they are basically fucked. It's Monty Python "Just a flesh wound" time.

On the other hand, I've been kind of impressed by the use of a crippling table for characters who have gone negative e.g. Scar on neck means can't turn left; lose dex bonus to hit with bow.

Yeah, that's a critical hit, not a light wound.

Have them lose hp until the flow is staunched. Then get them to ye ol spellcaster able to cast a Regenerate upon them ASAP.

There is no penalty to fighting with a missing limb, since you CANNOT fight with a limb you do not have.

Should the character attemp to melee using the other hand, I would consider the character swinging it the same as NWP and apply the penalty/ies as noted.

Thorkhammer wrote:There is no penalty to fighting with a missing limb, since you CANNOT fight with a limb you do not have.

True dat...

If they bleed out lower than -4, then something bad has happened. It could be permanent disfigurement (lost CHA), lost limb (possible lost STR or DEX), brain damage (lost INT or WIS, or maybe a tiny chance at an increase!), etc. Take your pick. Maybe a regen will work, or maybe it won't.

Adventuring is bad business. Stay home if you're gonna cry like a puss. Be thankful you're still alive, loser.

BTB anyone brought to 0 or -3 optionally is unconscious. Consequently, one begins suffering -1hp/rd. due to bleeding, shock, convulsions, non-respiration etc. If this persists without aid being administered and the damage reaches -6 or greater this indicates scarring or a member that cannot be mended due to it having been crushed or severed (82 DMG.). I would just rule -6 or greater indicates severing. As for CLW, depends on how or if you use the 'death's door' ruling from U.A, that is negative hit points are only recovered via death's door spell while other hit points may be regained through use of CLW etc.

Btb I don't think its covered. For instance if your at 80 HPs and someone cuts off your arm with a sword of sharpness, how do you handle that? How much damage is actually inflicted?

My guess is you'd need to drop out of combat, and you'd need to bind the wound or bleed out. I'd allow a system shock role to see if you pass out, if its made I'd allow continued fighting at some - to hit.

Axemental wrote:

someone cuts off your arm with a sword of sharpness, how do you handle that? How much damage is actually inflicted?

True, btb loss of a limb at -6hp refers to the loss of 1 hp/rd lost after reaching 0 or -3 hit points. My interpretation was an extrapolation from above. Sword of Sharpness, however, is a separate consideration in the DMG. Much like falling, with sprained, broken, or crushed limbs or organs the damage incurred is not in direct proportion to the actual injuries sustained. The sword of shapness would deliver the sword's base damage plus its adjustment. In a non-heroic campaigne (1st-3rd lvl.) that's a hefty amount of damage delivered and could fit with my extrapolation. Once a campaign is dealing with heroes, superheroes, that is, the stuff of mythology, I think the relationship between hit points and damage sustained often becomes remote. Admittedly, once you are gaming in that milieu its not out of the question to have heroes or superheroes continuing to fight with a missing arm...

Thanks for all the input. Not sure what I will do, but I like the idea of a guy living from that wound (due to magic) and then going on a quest to get his arm (or something's arm) re-attached. Fun!

Q: Hey, why do you have a lizardman arm?
A: Well, you see, a fighter, magic-user and cleric walked into a dungeon..

I think you probably could continue to fight after an arm is amputated at least for a good while, if the alternative is being eaten alive (and you manage not to pass out). I'd say -4 to hit, bleed until binded, check for passing out every round. But sometimes all it takes is that one more round to hit and finish off the bady.

Check out this story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Ralston

And this: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-0 ... rth-dakota

If these kids could do it, its not impossible to imagine a combat veteran being able to as well (albiet one of fantasy).

Axemental wrote:

check out this story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Ralston

And this: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-0 ... rth-dakota

Aron Ralston, as I recall, had prepared a tourniquet, again an amazing story of survival. As for the Dakota farmer, between severed arteries and shock this is an incredible story, nothing short of a miracle.

sepulchre wrote:Axemental wrote:

check out this story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Ralston

And this: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-0 ... rth-dakota

Aron Ralston, as I recall, had prepared a tourniquet, again an amazing story of survival. As for the Dakota farmer, between severed arteries and shock this is an incredible story, nothing short of a miracle.

True enough. But think about it, Aron Ralston suffered for 5 days trapped before cutting off his own arm (and that process wasn't quick). Then had to climb back out (something that had to take a good while).

Their are stories of people suffering attacks from bears where they continue to fight after loosing limbs or half limbs, swimmers continue struggling after loosing limbs in shark bites, the same is true in war with limbs blown off (maybe only for a bit, but in combat that might be enough if your buddies are close).

Bottom line, no one is just going to sit there and allow themselves to be eaten if they are still awake and capable of movement. Yes, it would improve things greatly if someone could bind the stump with a tourniquet for one round before getting back into the fight. But if its impossible to do that, and the guy with the severed limb continues fighting I would allow it with appropriate continued damage, minuses to hit and saves against passing out. I'd allow a CLW to temporarily slow the bleeding in combat.

Plus this is a fantasy game. So as DM its your call as to how to handle it (when not covered in rules). The thing is you want to be reasonable.

Axemental wrote:

-had to climb back out...continue to fight after loosing limbs...

All great points. In fact, all these examples have made me consider this quote more seriously than I imagined previously:

It would be no great task to devise an elaborate set of rules for highly complex individual combats with rounds of but a few seconds length. It is not in the best interests of an adventure game, however, to delve too deeply into cut and thrust, parry and riposte…The location of a hit or wound, the sort of damage done, sprains, breaks, and dislocations are not the stuff of heroic fantasy (61 DMG).

It is for this reason that Gygax does not provide a granular treatment of wounds, but merely isolated or loosely connected offerings that organically emerge out of the necesity of game play, i.e the sword of sharpness, or the loss of a limb based on blood loss and shock. In contrast OD&D's Greyhawk presents a rather sanguine address of the issue with hit locations and percentages of hit points assigned to different parts of the body, but all of that appears to exit stage left with the advent of AD&D:

without endless resort to charts, tables, procedure clarifications, and over-lengthy time requirements...bored with endless dice rolling and rules consulting…(61 DMG).

with appropriate continued damage, minuses to hit and saves against passing out. I'd allow a CLW to temporarily slow the bleeding in combat.

This, I believe, is the slippery slope suggested above. Once one connects specific injuries with loss of hit points one enters the world of 'endless dice rolling and rules consulting', I realize now the rulings in the DMG concerning the loss of a limb at -6hp are really more an of isolated and incidental mechanics amplifying the urgency of offering aid to a PC in a near death state than they a crushed or severed limb. That is, the ruling does not contradict Gygax's concept above of 'heroic fantasy'.

I imagine the referee can apply a specific injury when 'the last handful of hit points are considered (61 DMG)' as this is when 'a mere nick or scratch (61 DMG)' is no longer observed. In my own campaign, the result is lengthy healing times. Taking suggestion from Gygax, here are some examples (18 S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks):
Arm dislocated: 2 weeks to heal (no shield or weapon use depending on the limb)
Leg broken: 2 months to heal (interpreting this to mean a 3" movement rate)
Eye gouged out: -2 to hit

Plus this is a fantasy game...The thing is you want to be reasonable.

Indeed

Yeah.. I appreciate the pragmatism and practicality of abstract wounds/HP, but severed limbs are fun!