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DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:40 am
by francisca
From the DMG, page 28:
Modifiers To Dexterity Armor Class Adjustment: Neither penalty nor
bonus due to dexterity (the Defensive Adjustment) is considered when
the character is subjected to the following attack forms:
Attacks from the rear flank, rear, or strikes from behind (where the
character is virtually unable to see the attack coming).
Large missiles such as those hurled by a giant or some form of engine
(where the trajectory and speed and size of the missile negate dexterity
considerations).
Magical attacks by spell, device, breath weapon, gaze, etc. (note that
Defensive Adjustments do apply to saving throws for these attack forms).
Note the bolded green section.
Am I the only one who habitually forgets this?
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:50 am
by T. Foster
I honestly don't think I've ever used that rule (or seen it used by anyone else, for that matter -- including EGG).
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:01 pm
by TRP
I only recalled it for breath weapons, but I'll try to remember to use it on the other cases as well.
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:13 pm
by Matthew
We have definitely been using it for a good few years, at least a decade. Not sure if we were using it back in the nineties, though.
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:10 pm
by James Maliszewski
francisca wrote:Am I the only one who habitually forgets this?
I used to use it way back when, primarily, because there's a reference to it on the old TSR
AD&D character record sheets (the goldenrod ones) -- at least
I think there is. If not, then it was because the older guys I knew were quite adamant about using it. Either way, it's not something I'm all that keen on, since it's another thing that feeds the high ability score arms race I'd rather avoid.
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:16 pm
by Juju EyeBall
Hrm. I gotta re-read this. What ability scores modify saves?
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:19 pm
by James Maliszewski
DungeonDork wrote:Huh? It negates high scores. The bonuses don't apply versus those types of attacks.
Don't mind me; I'm thinking of something else entirely.
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:25 pm
by Juju EyeBall
James Maliszewski wrote:DungeonDork wrote:Huh? It negates high scores. The bonuses don't apply versus those types of attacks.
Don't mind me; I'm thinking of something else entirely.
The whole thing has me confused now.
If I'm reading this correctly:
The Defensive adjustment does not apply in regard to the attackers to-hit roll
The Defensive adjustment DOES apply in regards to the targets saving throw
I can't recall ability scores modifying saving throws, though. I though they were set by class/level?
Gonna have to re-read some stuff.
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:28 pm
by ligedog
Never saw that before - seems logical though.
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:38 pm
by James Maliszewski
DungeonDork wrote:I can't recall ability scores modifying saving throws, though. I though they were set by class/level?
Dexterity bonuses apply to saves vs. spells like fireballs and lightning bolts and other similar effects that could be reasonably dodged. That's from the PHB and what I was thinking about when I read the OP.
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:44 pm
by Juju EyeBall
James Maliszewski wrote:DungeonDork wrote:I can't recall ability scores modifying saving throws, though. I though they were set by class/level?
Dexterity bonuses apply to saves vs. spells like fireballs and lightning bolts and other similar effects that could be reasonably dodged. That's from the PHB and what I was thinking about when I read the OP.
Is that the only one?
Surprised CON doesn't effect poison, for instance.
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:46 pm
by T. Foster
DungeonDork wrote:Surprised CON doesn't effect poison, for instance.
It does if you've got a 19+
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:48 pm
by Juju EyeBall
Ah. Man I hate threads like this that make me second guess what I think I remember.
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:56 pm
by T. Foster
FWIW even though I've never used this rule before I intend to going forward. I wonder how noticeable an effect it will have...
Re: DEX bonus/penalty to Spell and Dragon Breath saves.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:00 pm
by francisca
James Maliszewski wrote:
Dexterity bonuses apply to saves vs. spells like fireballs and lightning bolts and other similar effects that could be reasonably dodged. That's from the PHB and what I was thinking about when I read the OP.
Right. I do rule that if you're at a dead end in a 10' wide x 10' tall dungeon corridor, and an evil magic-user drops a fireball right on top of you, you get no save, as it fills the entire area and creates a backblast, and you soak up full damage.
T. Foster wrote:FWIW even though I've never used this rule before I intend to going forward. I wonder how noticeable an effect it will have...
Same here.
BTW, this topic (and probably some others in the near future) came up because I'm in the midst of updating my "Clarifications and Houserules" document, as I intend on kicking off a new campaign in January.