Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Modeling the situation never works in AD&D unless you're modelling the AD&D situation. Making it easier to save is like giving basketball players a way to kick a field goal, just because another game allows it.

grodog wrote:I have no idea if something like this is even worth putting into practice (or at least, not in D&D), since it seems like adding quite a bit of complexity (you'd have to classify powers against which "save type" they'd be defended against, which sounds like a matrixed nightmare to me) without a lot of payback.

I agree; after considering it, I don't think it's worth codifying with rules and separate subsystems. I think it's enough that the DM is aware of the different ways such a check or save can be approached. He can pick the appropriate method and modifiers (or lack thereof).

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

francisca wrote:Right. I do rule that if you're at a dead end in a 10' wide x 10' tall dungeon corridor, and an evil magic-user drops a fireball right on top of you, you get no save, as it fills the entire area and creates a backblast, and you soak up full damage.

I've always ruled that way, too, but lately I've been re-thinking it. Mostly because of this:

DMG pg. 80-81 wrote:Could a man chained to a rock, they asked, save himself from the blast of a red dragon's breath? Why not?, I replied...why doubt the chance to reduce the damage sustained from such a creature's attack? Imagine that the figure, at the last moment, of course, manages to drop beneath the licking flames, or finds a crevice in which to shield his or her body, or succeeds in finding a way to be free of the fetters.

If taking this approach to the saving throw, I'd be inclined to be generous and allow for one even if the situation seems to dictate otherwise. And if the saving throw succeeds, well, then I'll even go so far as to alter the situation, just like the PC chained to the rock who finds a way to be free of his fetters in the nick of time. The PC at the dead-end corridor triggers a pit beneath his feet, or notices a dust-covered pool of stagnant water to throw himself into. Something.

Beyond this, it highlights that the DM doesn't know everything. The DM hasn't--literally, gone through every 10x10 passage in the dungeon and determined where a small crevice might be, a pool of stagnant water, or a medium sized rock that a hero could hide behind. The saving throw represents the creation of reality--If the player made his save...obviously something was there for him to duck behind, post hoc.

I thought I'd tack this on here, rather than start a new topic...In your opinion, should the save vs. petrification which monks get vs. missile attacks be affected by the defensive adjustment?

The PHB says they don't get an AC adjustment for dex, but it doesn't say anything about being denied reaction or saving throw adjustments. It's not like monks are overpowering in most campaigns, so I say throw 'em a bone and give it to 'em.

I would go along with that; unless the class description explicitly denies the monk something, then it is safe to assume that it is applicable.

T. Foster wrote:

DungeonDork wrote:Surprised CON doesn't effect poison, for instance.

It does if you've got a 19+

Or are a dwarf (PHB pg 15), gnome* PHB pg 16), or halfling (PHB pg 17).

+1 per 3.5 points of con vs rods, staves, wands, spells, and poison.

My 19-con dwarf fighter has made good use of that bonus (5+1=+6 vs poison) over his 8 levels... really frustrated that giant spider, something like 3 consecutive saves at 1st-level in the Moathouse.



* Actually, the text gives gnomes the bonus for rods, staves, wands, & spells, but does not mention poison.

The text for dwarves and halflings does mention poison as well as r/st/w/sp.




So that's 3 characteristics that give save bonuses for characters with above-normal ability scores.

@EOTB & Matthew, I'm tending to agree. It's just interesting that in the explanation of the defensive adjustment, we read that it doesn't apply to the stare of a Basilisk. And then we read that monks get to make a save vs. petrification against missile attacks.

Course, the save could just be a convenient number...but I was a bit bemused.