Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Can it be assumed that with PCs carrying torches that surprise would be nearly impossible against creatures ahead that are in pitch black awake and somewhat on the watch (assuming they have eyes). For example, I can see how a fighter with no light source could sneak up on a group of 10 orcs, say around a fire pit and win surprise. But I find it hard to imagine how a fighter carrying a lantern or torch could surprise a group of 10 orcs just hanging out in pitch black (lets say in a wide open cavern).

As DMs how do you see this? It seems humans are pretty much dependent on bringing light underground (unless there's some other source of light), so those monsters encountered that don't need it are at a huge advantage with surprise in pitch black.

A second question. Would you allow a human thief to sneak up to a position in pitch blackness without at least reducing his HIS (my assumption is that "shadow" in D&D terms relates to infravision as well, so that an elf thief could sneak up in darkness thus not requiring shadows produced by light).

AxeMental wrote:Can it be assumed that with PCs carrying torches that surprise would be nearly impossible against creatures ahead that are in pitch black awake and somewhat on the watch (assuming they have eyes).

Yes. Gygax mentions light negating surprise, too. "Noise or light can negate the chance of surprising a monster." (PH pg 103) "Light can spoil the chance of surprise." (DMG pg 62)

It seems humans are pretty much dependent on bringing light underground (unless there's some other source of light), so those monsters encountered that don't need it are at a huge advantage with surprise in pitch black.

Yep. Dungeons and caves are dangerous.

A second question. Would you allow a human thief to sneak up to a position in pitch blackness without at least reducing his HIS (my assumption is that "shadow" in D&D terms relates to infravision as well, so that an elf thief could sneak up in darkness thus not requiring shadows produced by light).

I wouldn't use hide in shadows for "sneaking," if that includes movement. Hiding in shadows requires a stationary thief (see DMG pg 19 and also the PH description on pg 27, where it says "remaining motionless"). So the thief would move silently into position (a failed roll might give him away, but also might not), and then try to hide in shadows, remaining motionless to stay hidden. However, with no shadows in pitch blackness, hide in shadows ability is useless, anyway. I might modify his move silently roll if the ground is littered with debris or the room with obstacles that he couldn't see.

Here's what Gygax says about hiding in shadows and infravision: "It can be accomplished with respect to creatures with infravision (q.v.) only if some heat producing light source is near to the creature or to the thief attempting to so hide." (PH pg 28)

I've always considered sneaking up on a position to be a combination of moving from position to position (thus a combo of the two) assuming the targets backs are not always to you (in which case I only require MS) also there has to be proper conditions (ie shadows).

AFAIC, hiding is not moving.

DungeonDork wrote:AFAIC, hiding is not moving.

Agreed.

AxeMental wrote:I've always considered sneaking up on a position to be a combination of moving from position to position (thus a combo of the two) assuming the targets backs are not always to you (in which case I only require MS) also there has to be proper conditions (ie shadows).

I'd probably just fold those considerations into a surprise roll (possibly modified by a move silently check). In general, I think the thief sucks enough without asking him to make multiple hide in shadows and move silently checks while sneaking up on someone. :p

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

AxeMental wrote:I've always considered sneaking up on a position to be a combination of moving from position to position (thus a combo of the two) assuming the targets backs are not always to you (in which case I only require MS) also there has to be proper conditions (ie shadows).

I'd probably just fold those considerations into a surprise roll (possibly modified by a move silently check). In general, I think the thief sucks enough without asking him to make multiple hide in shadows and move silently checks while sneaking up on someone. :p

I usually require MS or HIS not both (usually because thats all thats required). There are only some situations that warrant both. For example, if he's rescueing his fellows held in a cage in an orc encampment. The thief might take many hours making his slow progression, MS to one rock or one ditch, then HIS there until a group or sentry passes, then move MS to the next location past another group, etc. till he's picking the lock and rescueing his friends.

Agreed, totally, that light almost always negates surprise when moving through the dark.

Axemental wrote:Can it be assumed that with PCs carrying torches that surprise would be nearly impossible against creatures ahead that are in pitch black awake and somewhat on the watch (assuming they have eyes). For example, I can see how a fighter with no light source could sneak up on a group of 10 orcs, say around a fire pit and win surprise. But I find it hard to imagine how a fighter carrying a lantern or torch could surprise a group of 10 orcs just hanging out in pitch black (lets say in a wide open cavern).

I can't see why, in your example, a bunch of Orcs would just be hanging out in the pitch black...they are going to be doing something, aren't they? If they are playing dice...they are going to need light to see the numbers. Noise will also give them away...they're argumentative bastards...

I agree that if a fighter(or anyone) with a lantern walks up to a bunch of Orcs sitting in the dark, they would certainly know he's there.

As an aside, if a party makes a sudden bright light(for example, by tossing oil onto a campfire) it could momentarily blind watchers who have been using their infravision to spy on them. What do you think?

Axemental wrote:A second question. Would you allow a human thief to sneak up to a position in pitch blackness without at least reducing his HIS (my assumption is that "shadow" in D&D terms relates to infravision as well, so that an elf thief could sneak up in darkness thus not requiring shadows produced by light).

I think the monsters would spot the thief, with their infravision, as he moves up to a spot in pitch dark...if however he was moving up within the shadow cast by a lantern or fire he wouldn't be spotted. I reckon.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:Here's what Gygax says about hiding in shadows and infravision: "It can be accomplished with respect to creatures with infravision (q.v.) only if some heat producing light source is near to the creature or to the thief attempting to so hide." (PH pg 28)

Err yeah...This.

As Philotomy says. In those sorts of situations thief abilities only modify whether surprise is achieved, rather than determine whether a thief has been sufficiently stealthy.

Matthew wrote:As Philotomy says. In those sorts of situations thief abilities only modify whether surprise is achieved, rather than determine whether a thief has been sufficiently stealthy.

Well, a thief may win complete surprise which is a bit different. A thief that wins complete surprise is totaly undetected (that is assumed if MS or HIS is made). A thief can also win normal surprise (where his enemy is awar of him but unprepared).

A thief that wins complete surprise can attempt to spy, steal something, or just move past that location (note this is done with MS or HIS, not the surprise role on a d6). only when the thief attempts to backstab or just attack do you role the d6 to determine if surprise is won, and how many segments (the first segment being the backstab). At least this is how I understand it.

Mudguard I think HIS works with infravision.

AxeMental wrote:A thief that wins complete surprise is totaly undetected (that is assumed if MS or HIS is made).

Not according to the PH:

"...thieves, as well as characters able to move quietly because of a magical device such as boots of elvenkind have a chance to be absolutely silent when moving…Success indicates silent movement and an improved chance to surprise an opponent of slip past it." (PH pg 102)

A successful move silently check does not mean automatic/assumed surprise. It means an improved chance for surprise. Invisibility (or succeeding at hide in shadows) works similarly, increasing the chance of surprise, as can be seen from the surprise example on pg 103.

AxeMental wrote:A thief that wins complete surprise can attempt to spy, steal something, or just move past that location (note this is done with MS or HIS, not the surprise role on a d6). only when the thief attempts to backstab or just attack do you role the d6 to determine if surprise is won, and how many segments (the first segment being the backstab). At least this is how I understand it.

I think these must be your own house-rules. That's not the way the AD&D books describe surprise and thief abilities working.

AxeMental wrote:I think HIS works with infravision.

It does, but only if there is a heat-radiating light source nearby (per the PH pg 28 rule reference, up-thread).

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

AxeMental wrote:A thief that wins complete surprise is totaly undetected (that is assumed if MS or HIS is made).

Not according to the PH:

"...thieves, as well as characters able to move quietly because of a magical device such as boots of elvenkind have a chance to be absolutely silent when moving…Success indicates silent movement and an improved chance to surprise an opponent of slip past it." (PH pg 102)A successful move silently check does not mean automatic/assumed surprise. It means an improved chance for surprise. Invisibility (or succeeding at hide in shadows) works similarly, increasing the chance of surprise, as can be seen from the surprise example on pg 103.

AxeMental wrote:A thief that wins complete surprise can attempt to spy, steal something, or just move past that location (note this is done with MS or HIS, not the surprise role on a d6). only when the thief attempts to backstab or just attack do you role the d6 to determine if surprise is won, and how many segments (the first segment being the backstab). At least this is how I understand it.

I think these must be your own house-rules. That's not the way the AD&D books describe surprise and thief abilities working.

AxeMental wrote:I think HIS works with infravision.

It does, but only if there is a heat-radiating light source nearby (per the PH pg 28 rule reference, up-thread).

Wow. So a thief that makes his MS and attempts to move past a guard, still must role a d6 surprise role anyway? If he makes it, then he's undetected and can continue, if not he's spotted. Amazing I've been doing it wrong all these years. My impression was that he only needed to role that surprise role if he wanted to attack (with a BS for instance) otherwise he could just continue on.

Well, thanks for the humble pie PJ, I was getting hungry.

I'm not quite sure on this point either. But, given that certain conditions negate your chance to surprise e.g. you're lit up or making noise...then MS/HS help you avoid those conditions. I would say that if you make MS/HS, and you're by yourself and no other conditions might make monster aware of you e.g. it smells you, then you do have surprise and there is no need to go to the d6.

If you do go the route of MS/HS improving your chance of surprise...where is that improvement detailed?

I know Mudguard. It seems a bit weird.

PJ:
"...thieves, as well as characters able to move quietly because of a magical device such as boots of elvenkind have a chance to be absolutely silent when moving…Success indicates silent movement and an improved chance to surprise an opponent of slip past it." (PH pg 102)

Its odd your supposed to role surprise when your not actually surprising anyone (assuming your just slipping past) I mean, with a backstab I can see. Man, it ain't easy being a thief. I wonder if this qoute is what was intended. Perhaps it was supposed to apply only to attacks made (rather then sneaking past)? Would like to get Foster's take on this.