Knights & Knaves Alehouse

AxeMental wrote:I know Mudguard. It seems a bit weird.

PJ:
"...thieves, as well as characters able to move quietly because of a magical device such as boots of elvenkind have a chance to be absolutely silent when moving…Success indicates silent movement and an improved chance to surprise an opponent of slip past it." (PH pg 102)

Its odd your supposed to role surprise when your not actually surprising anyone (assuming your just slipping past) I mean, with a backstab I can see. Man, it ain't easy being a thief. I wonder if this qoute is what was intended. Perhaps it was supposed to apply only to attacks made (rather then sneaking past)? Would like to get Foster's take on this.

Call it "detection" instead of surprise?

AxeMental wrote:Wow. So a thief that makes his MS and attempts to move past a guard, still must role a d6 surprise role anyway? If he makes it, then he's undetected and can continue, if not he's spotted. Amazing I've been doing it wrong all these years. My impression was that he only needed to role that surprise role if he wanted to attack (with a BS for instance) otherwise he could just continue on.

Well, I don't think it's necessarily that black and white, but in general, move silently (or hide in shadows) doesn't automatically mean non-detection. There's still plenty of room for DM ruling and common sense, though. For example take your example of a thief trying to slip past a guard. The thief makes his move silently roll. Per the AD&D rules, that means he's completely silent -- the guard will not hear him. So the only question is whether or not the guard will notice him some other way (happen to glance that way, prickle on the back of his neck, see a reflection or shadow, et cetera). That's where a surprise check comes in, and that's what the DM needs to assess. It might depend on the circumstances. Sometimes, a successful move silently combined with other circumstances might mean no surprise check is necessary. Sometimes it might just mean a bonus to surprise.

That sounds good to me.

Mudguard wrote:If you do go the route of MS/HS improving your chance of surprise...where is that improvement detailed?

It's not, except by example. The rules say that success on MS (or invisibility/HS) improves the chance of surprise, but they do not give you any specific modifiers to apply. That's why there's still plenty of wiggle room for DM rulings, as the situation warrants.

It does, however, give an example of the improvement on pg. 103 of the PH. "Assume the party of characters, moving silently and invisibly, comes upon a monster. They have a 4 in 6 chance of surprise, and the monster has 2 in 6."

In the example, the entire party is both invisible and silent. Instead of their normal 2 in 6 chance of surprise, they get a 4 in 6 chance of surprise. We can reasonably assume that being invisible gave them a 1 in 6 boost, and being silent gave them another 1 in 6 boost. There are no details given on what the encounter is, so I assume it's just a standard dungeon-style encounter that it's talking about.

To be clear, I'm not saying you *always* must roll for surprise even if MS/HS succeeds. I'm saying that, by the book, MS and HS don't grant automatic non-detection, just a bonus to surprise. And that the DM must then adjudicate surprise as best fits the situation.

AxeMental wrote:Its odd your supposed to role surprise when your not actually surprising anyone (assuming your just slipping past) I mean, with a backstab I can see. Man, it ain't easy being a thief.

Consider the case of a Fighter who is trying to slip past a guard. He doesn't have move silently ability. But he takes off his hard boots, leaves behind his metal armor, blackens his face and blade, and makes every effort to be quiet. How do you handle his attempt?

I'd use a surprise check, with appropriate modifiers for the circumstances.

And with the Thief, I'd use the same surprise check. But with the Thief, a successful MS check will give him a better chance than the Fighter.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

AxeMental wrote:Its odd your supposed to role surprise when your not actually surprising anyone (assuming your just slipping past) I mean, with a backstab I can see. Man, it ain't easy being a thief.

Consider the case of a Fighter who is trying to slip past a guard. He doesn't have move silently ability. But he takes off his hard boots, leaves behind his metal armor, blackens his face and blade, and makes every effort to be quiet. How do you handle his attempt?

I'd use a surprise check, with appropriate modifiers for the circumstances.

And with the Thief, I'd use the same surprise check. But with the Thief, a successful MS check will give him a better chance than the Fighter.

Interesting question PJ. I remember reading someplace (in may have been UA) the base chance for MS and HIS for non-thieves (if anyone has that page ref. please let me know). It was close to the ability of a 1st level thief (I think) level of class didn't matter. What I've done in the past is give racial bonus and dex bonus plus 20% (so that 10th level human fighter with average dex has a 20% no different then a farmer attempting the same thing). If they succeed in MS they go by undetected. If they fail I role standard surprise (where the fighter would have a 1-2 in 6. In the same scenario just make that a thief, I'd use the thief's chance to MS, if he fails (say he had a 50%) I'd then role surprise 1-2 in 6. If he made it I'd only require he role surprise if he attacks. Its a wacky system but it was my best BTB understanding (given those non-thief MS and HIS stats I can't seem to find).

I don't think it says anyplace that a surprise can be undetected (other then that example you just pointed out, and thats for thieves and invis or silenced), yet it obviously could be (or no non-thief/monk/assassin could ever sneak past someone without being detected -which is obviously wrong).

5 orcs heavily gambling and drinking at a table might be easily passed by a human fighter in plate with whatever chance you deem realistic. DMs call.

AxeMental wrote:I remember reading someplace (in may have been UA) the base chance for MS and HIS for non-thieves (if anyone has that page ref. please let me know). It was close to the ability of a 1st level thief (I think) level of class didn't matter.

There's nothing like that in UA, that I recall. Maybe it was in Dragon or White Dwarf or one of the 2e books (e.g., Skills & Powers)? In any case, I think that's a poor approach. I prefer the idea that the thief's abilities are special. His ability to move silently and to hide in shadows are better than generic stealthiness that's possible by any class. I prefer to think that a thief doesn't just quietly sneak, he moves without making a sound. He doesn't just hide, he hides in shadows you wouldn't think could conceal a man. He doesn't just climb, he climbs sheer walls without using a rope! Et cetera.

I think giving the other classes the opportunity to use the Thief's abilities undermines the class, and also introduces the idea of an undefined or underlying "skill system" upon which the classes are built. That's an approach I don't welcome in AD&D. (And one that came to full fruition in 2e.)

Its a wacky system but it was my best BTB understanding (given those non-thief MS and HIS stats I can't seem to find).

I suspect you're using a house-rule you thought was BTB (which isn't an unheard of possibility for any of us, after decades of play). I do remember some climbing rules for non-thieves in the WSG/DSG books, but I never use those, just like I never use the official fire-starting rules from those books. (I don't hold the later AD&D books in high regard.)

I don't think it says anyplace that a surprise can be undetected...

Well, the DMG pg 61 says "A surprised party is caught unawares or unprepared." That could be read as saying "unaware of you or unprepared for you." I don't think EGG believed precisely defining surprise and all its possibile variations would be beneficial or necessary. In fact, the DMG says something along those lines: "When one side or another is surprised, this general term can represent a number of possible circumstances…While each possible cause of surprise could be detailed…the overall result would not materially add to the game -- in fact, the undue complication would detract from the smooth flow of play." (DMG pg 62)

I think surprise is intended to be a flexible concept that the DM applies to the situation, as appropriate. So if you hear deep, bassy snores when listening at a door, the surprise roll can be used to see if you awaken the sleeping ogre, when you open the door, or if he remains unaware of you. It can be used when you burst into a subterranean barracks and startle a squad of orcs playing dice: are they stunned into a few moments of inactivity, or do they respond immediately? It can be used when sneaking past the guard: does he get a funny feeling or look your way for some reason, or does he remain oblivious? Et cetera.

My memory of those race tables of MS or HIS I simply can't place, and now I'm wondering if I'm not totaly confusing them with something else (perhaps another system).

In any event the system I described using never sat well with me (it was my attempt at btb, which I didn't really care so much about prior to going on DF), normally I'd have just made something up on the spot (though I wouldn't have used standard surprise).

Your reading of the material sounds far more 1E "in feel" to me. And you did a good job describing the rational (both in the "unique" abilities of a thief and in the common dislike of a universal system...a concept I've come to dispise).

I did once ask EGG (never a good way to start a sentence ) what he had originally intended regarding a 1E thief's moving into position and backstabbing. He claimed that his intent was -if a thief did MS or HIS no further surprise role was needed to attempt to backstab (assuming the target was in range). EGG also stated that after that backstab attempt normal initiative was roled. This was the way I was taught the game as well, way back when. So, thats pretty different then what the rules actually say (which is role 1-4 segments of surprise which is potentially far more devistating). Or perpahs I'm still missing something.

As you read the rules, do you think a thief that wishes to backstab (who does make his MS role) would only get his one backstab attempt and then role initiative, or do you think he would get to use the additional segments won as well?

For instance: if a thief MS up behind an orc and wins 3 segments of surprise, do you think he can attempt a backstab and also get to attack two additional times, or do you think he can attempt his backstab only (after which point initiative is roled)? If the later, do you think the thief can choose between getting the three attacks or the backstab?

Philotomy Jurament wrote: Consider the case of a Fighter who is trying to slip past a guard. He doesn't have move silently ability. But he takes off his hard boots, leaves behind his metal armor, blackens his face and blade, and makes every effort to be quiet. How do you handle his attempt?

I'd use a surprise check, with appropriate modifiers for the circumstances.

And with the Thief, I'd use the same surprise check. But with the Thief, a successful MS check will give him a better chance than the Fighter.

I agree. Depending on the circumstances, I'd increase the chance of the thief surprising the guard to 3, 4, and possibly 5 in 6. Environmental conditions being the prime consideration. (light, other noise in the area, is there a "haughty courtesan" flirting with the guard, distracting him from his duty, etc....)

Tangent (straying into houserule turf): I'm also in the habit of noting quality of guards. I use terms like diligent, paranoid, lazy, clueless, and sleepy. Sometime, in the middle of the night, a guard might be dozing off, for instance. Others are fanatical and very vigilant. That effects surprise as well.

AxeMental wrote:I remember reading someplace (in may have been UA) the base chance for MS and HIS for non-thieves (if anyone has that page ref. please let me know). It was close to the ability of a 1st level thief (I think) level of class didn't matter.

Not in any official 1E source from the Gygax era. Could have been in a non-Gygax Dragon article or a non-Gygax module or maybe even one of the later rulebooks (OA, Survival Guides), but I wouldn't consider any of those sources "canonical" as far as interpreting the original rules.

As far as the topic in general, I don't really have anything to add to or disagree with what PJ has already said.

AxeMental wrote:As you read the rules, do you think a thief that wishes to backstab (who does make his MS role) would only get his one backstab attempt and then role initiative, or do you think he would get to use the additional segments won as well?

For instance: if a thief MS up behind an orc and wins 3 segments of surprise, do you think he can attempt a backstab and also get to attack two additional times, or do you think he can attempt his backstab only (after which point initiative is roled)? If the later, do you think the thief can choose between getting the three attacks or the backstab?

When a backstabbing thief can attack multiple times (from using two weapons or from multiple surprise segments), I give him all his attacks, but only grant the backstab modifiers for the first attack. So in your example, where the Thief can attack three times, I give him +4 and with damage multiplier on the first attack, and +2 (i.e., standard rear attack bonus) with normal damage on the next two attacks.

I don't remember for certain, but (FWIW) I think Sage Advice answered the "backstab/multiple attacks" question in this way, at some point. I'll see if I can find it.

AxeMental wrote:My memory of those race tables of MS or HIS I simply can't place, and now I'm wondering if I'm not totaly confusing them with something else (perhaps another system).

Perhaps Hear Noise? Everyone has a chance to Hear Noise, although it is a thief skill that only improves for thieves. But the chance for a normal person to Hear Noise, as per DMG Pg. 60, is exactly the same as a 1st level thief adjusted for racial bonuses, as per PHB Pg. 28. Although for normal people it is given as a d20 role instead of percentile.

Perhaps the house rule for MS and HiS was extrapolated from that.

Philotomy wrote:

When a backstabbing thief can attack multiple times (from using two weapons or from multiple surprise segments), I give him all his attacks, but only grant the backstab modifiers for the first attack. So in your example, where the Thief can attack three times, I give him +4 and with damage multiplier on the first attack, and +2 (i.e., standard rear attack bonus) with normal damage on the next two attacks.

Philotomy, I'm not in disagreement with this reading, but I have always found a measure of ambiguity or obscurity in how to read a thief's additional attack when surprising from behind. Do you know of a BTB reference for that reading. To be honest I prefer your reading, but I know players who would interpret each additional attack/surprise segment as a backstab...

Eye of the Beholder wrote:

AxeMental wrote:My memory of those race tables of MS or HIS I simply can't place, and now I'm wondering if I'm not totaly confusing them with something else (perhaps another system).

Perhaps Hear Noise? Everyone has a chance to Hear Noise, although it is a thief skill that only improves for thieves. But the chance for a normal person to Hear Noise, as per DMG Pg. 60, is exactly the same as a 1st level thief adjusted for racial bonuses, as per PHB Pg. 28. Although for normal people it is given as a d20 role instead of percentile.

Perhaps the house rule for MS and HiS was extrapolated from that.

Crap thats it.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

AxeMental wrote:As you read the rules, do you think a thief that wishes to backstab (who does make his MS role) would only get his one backstab attempt and then role initiative, or do you think he would get to use the additional segments won as well?

For instance: if a thief MS up behind an orc and wins 3 segments of surprise, do you think he can attempt a backstab and also get to attack two additional times, or do you think he can attempt his backstab only (after which point initiative is roled)? If the later, do you think the thief can choose between getting the three attacks or the backstab?

When a backstabbing thief can attack multiple times (from using two weapons or from multiple surprise segments), I give him all his attacks, but only grant the backstab modifiers for the first attack. So in your example, where the Thief can attack three times, I give him +4 and with damage multiplier on the first attack, and +2 (i.e., standard rear attack bonus) with normal damage on the next two attacks.

I don't remember for certain, but (FWIW) I think Sage Advice answered the "backstab/multiple attacks" question in this way, at some point. I'll see if I can find it.

Thats how I do it as well.

So if a thief is moving down a cavern without MS but is still being stealthy (say to move more quickly), would this be considered improved surprise (over the standard 1-2) similar to an elf? If yes, is it a 1-3 or 1-4? For some reason I've always given a thief a 1-3 if by himself and not MS, but a 1-4 if he does MS. If he fails to MS I role normal 1-2 surprise. How do you handle these situations?