Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Okay, rant on...

My wife is a regular participant at the game table. She enjoys playing thieves but I swear to god for all her desire to "be sneaky, back-stabbity and loot-grabbity!" she bitches and moans when the big throwdown comes and while everyone else is shrugging off damage (depending on the critter) she's getting slapped around and coming near death PDQ.

THIEVES AREN'T TANKS. THEY DO NOT GO TOE-TO-TOE IN MELEE. IF THEY DO ITS BECAUSE SOMETHING HAS GONE SERIOUSLY WRONG.

Either your tactics are fucked, or the whole situation has fallen apart and the thief is having to provide rearguard action or is the last person standing or is covering a flank - probably because your party's tactics were fucked in the first place!

Its one matter if a thief is scouting ahead and walks into an ambush. Shit happens. But there should be a line of fighters coming up PDQ, and the thief should be exiting the battlezone. Dual- or multi-class are obvious exceptions.

/rant

It kind of depends on the precise situation. Typically thieves are third line combatants, but with the right mix of attributes and magical do-dads they can serve as second line combatants in a pinch. Obviously, Unearthed Arcana increases their combat ability by giving them access to studded armour and short bows. So, if the thief is hitting 17 or 18 dexterity he can mix it up with the clerics, probably with an AC in the 1-3 zone by fifth level (fighter's fourth level), 5-30 hit points as opposed to 4-32, and maybe fighting with two weapons if not using a buckler. Better to stay clear and deal with the stragglers, though, for sure.

Another reason the thief can get badly bitch-slapped about is that a couple of the biggest fighters picked it up and threw at the monsters. You know, throw food at the monsters as you make your escape.

But, yeah. Thieves not be tanks. They're not even those peppy little Shermans.

Matthew wrote:It kind of depends on the precise situation. Typically thieves are third line combatants, but with the right mix of attributes and magical do-dads they can serve as second line combatants in a pinch. Obviously, Unearthed Arcana increases their combat ability by giving them access to studded armour and short bows. So, if the thief is hitting 17 or 18 dexterity he can mix it up with the clerics, probably with an AC in the 1-3 zone by fifth level (fighter's fourth level), 5-30 hit points as opposed to 4-32, and maybe fighting with two weapons if not using a buckler. Better to stay clear and deal with the stragglers, though, for sure.

Yeah; bitching that the thief isn't up there in the skirmish line or worse still complaining when the thief gets up there and immediately comes out on the losing end is...I mean, wow.

Another great role for thieves is as pursuers, come to think of it. When the fighters are rolling along in plated mail, the thief can easily pursue and finish off fleeing enemies, especially if keeping to leather armour (Move 12), with free attacks every round potentially.

Matthew wrote:Another great role for thieves is as pursuers, come to think of it. When the fighters are rolling along in plated mail, the thief can easily pursue and finish off fleeing enemies, especially if keeping to leather armour (Move 12), with free attacks every round potentially.

Yeah, definitely. If you have a couple of thieves and then Light Foot (also wearing leather, possibly armed with shield and polearm to prevent cornered orcs from going all Han Solo in the Death Star on the pursuing thieves) to chase the straggling remnants of an orc patrol, this is a great idea.

But again, as a TOW-armed humvee is no match for a main battle tank in a head-on fight, the thieves' players must know their limitations.

thedungeondelver wrote: Yeah, definitely. If you have a couple of thieves and then Light Foot (also wearing leather, possibly armed with shield and polearm to prevent cornered orcs from going all Han Solo in the Death Star on the pursuing thieves) to chase the straggling remnants of an orc patrol, this is a great idea.

But again, as a TOW-armed humvee is no match for a main battle tank in a head-on fight, the thieves' players must know their limitations.

You know, that is a great point. My players rarely hire light foot types, preferring to have their men-at-arms get stuck in on the battle line, but it makes great sense to have a thief leading light foot troops in that way, whether primarily archers or a different sort of skirmisher, it usually seems a waste to have a fighter in that role.

agreed. It's a great role for a Thief.

I CAN see the wife's desire to play a skilled/light fighter in AD&D that CAN contribute more meaningfully to combat. Perhaps suggest a Fighter/Thief next time she decides to make a Thief, or something like the Duelist from dragon magazine.

Alternatively if you use the UA, the barbarian can go this route pretty well (though the class as presented isn't good IMHO) & the Thief/Acrobat, justly maligned as it deserves, still has a GREAT melee equaliser in Tumble:Evasion %, hell an elven or dwarven fighter/thief-acrobat is a damnable opponent in a fight.

OR take a rule from 2e C&T where the Thief can spend a WP slot on being able to use a shield. Extra defense can go a long way, as magic shields are pretty common finds.

I see the thief as the guy or girl who jumps in there and finishes off the enemy that the fighter or cleric has already wounded. Use scrolls. Use your skills and backstab if possible. Throw daggers.

darnizhaan wrote:I see the thief as the guy or girl who jumps in there and finishes off the enemy that the fighter or cleric has already wounded. Use scrolls. Use your skills and backstab if possible. Throw daggers.

I agree. When folks start complaining about what they can't do or what they should be able to do, that's just "creeping 3rd-editionism"

PS: No offense to you or your wife, DD. It's an easy trap to fall into (1-3 on 1d6 for sure).

darnizhaan wrote:I see the thief as the guy or girl who jumps in there and finishes off the enemy that the fighter or cleric has already wounded. Use scrolls. Use your skills and backstab if possible. Throw daggers.

The problem is, he's crap at performing even these actions. Scroll use comes in at 10th level, and even then has a flat 1 in 4 chance of messing it up, probably at great harm to the party. Skills are a long-maligned problem with the thief by virtue of being way too low for the first real life year or two of the character's existence. A low-level fighter can expect to do decently against similarly low-level opponents, and so can a low-level cleric or M.U. (as long as he's not out of spells. But not so a low-level thief: that backstab attempt is likely to be tied to a preceding Move Silently or Hide in Shadows roll - at least I don't remember the last time I've seen a DM allow an attack without one of those -, and at low levels you will fail that roll. If not the first time the character ever tries it, then the second - and then your backstab attempt fails and you find yourself facing a superior enemy in a straight-up fight.

The thief's problem in a fight is not that it's not used the way it's intended; it's that it IS used the way it's intended, and sucks at that. The underlying problem being, of course, that it was first conceived as an NPC "expert" class to let bored players hire a henchman and bypass the "dullness" of constantly roleplaying how they search for and disable traps. It was simply not MEANT to be an equally contributing member of an all-PC party.

Technically, the way it is supposed to work is that "party wins surprise, thief gets a back stab", but obviously that also depends on one of the enemies not seeing him and being within combat range. My impression is that a lot of game masters are not very liberal with back stab attempts, and seek to close them down to no good effect.

Thieves are expendable. They take point constantly, have to save against traps they miss (deadly at low level) and do things like jump in the water to check stuff out (while the guy in armor watches from land).

I just played a thief last week in a 1E game. Our river raft was attacked by aquatic hobgoblins and the timbers below the water line was stuck on a grappling hook attached to a rope (hence we were going no place fast). After the initial battle, someone had to go underwater and cut us free, and quickly as a good number were slept and going to awaken soon. The two thieves (me and another half elf) jumped in and discovered the aquatic hobgoblin chief hiding out under the boat next to the grappling hook. No fighters around we pulled our longswords and daggers, and in short order killed him (though both of us took serous damage). Of course, we kept the nicer of the gems in his money bag. But we beat the odds, and should have died. Expendable. All in the day of the life of a Vietnam Era Green Berret taking point (ala the movie Green Berret) or 1E thief.
Sure you try not to loose your thief. But in the end everyones thinking,"well at least it was just the scumbag thief".

AxeMental wrote:Thieves are expendable. They take point constantly, have to save against traps they miss (deadly at low level) and do things like jump in the water to check stuff out (while the guy in armor watches from land).

I just played a thief last week in a 1E game. Our river raft was attacked by aquatic hobgoblins and the timbers below the water line was stuck on a grappling hook attached to a rope (hence we were going no place fast). After the initial battle, someone had to go underwater and cut us free, and quickly as a good number were slept and going to awaken soon. The two thieves (me and another half elf) jumped in and discovered the aquatic hobgoblin chief hiding out under the boat next to the grappling hook. No fighters around we pulled our longswords and daggers, and in short order killed him (though both of us took serous damage). Of course, we kept the nicer of the gems in his money bag. But we beat the odds, and should have died. Expendable. All in the day of the life of a Vietnam Era Green Berret taking point (ala the movie Green Berret) or 1E thief.
Sure you try not to loose your thief. But in the end everyones thinking,"well at least it was just the scumbag thief".

Uh, Green Berets aren't expendable point-men, they're finely tuned killing machines more akin to Rangers (as are Army Rangers!) than that. Your halfling link-boy you con in to walking a few yards ahead, he's expendable. Your thief character shouldn't be... Just my two cents.

thedungeondelver wrote:

AxeMental wrote:Thieves are expendable. They take point constantly, have to save against traps they miss (deadly at low level) and do things like jump in the water to check stuff out (while the guy in armor watches from land).

I just played a thief last week in a 1E game. Our river raft was attacked by aquatic hobgoblins and the timbers below the water line was stuck on a grappling hook attached to a rope (hence we were going no place fast). After the initial battle, someone had to go underwater and cut us free, and quickly as a good number were slept and going to awaken soon. The two thieves (me and another half elf) jumped in and discovered the aquatic hobgoblin chief hiding out under the boat next to the grappling hook. No fighters around we pulled our longswords and daggers, and in short order killed him (though both of us took serous damage). Of course, we kept the nicer of the gems in his money bag. But we beat the odds, and should have died. Expendable. All in the day of the life of a Vietnam Era Green Berret taking point (ala the movie Green Berret) or 1E thief.
Sure you try not to loose your thief. But in the end everyones thinking,"well at least it was just the scumbag thief".

Uh, Green Berets aren't expendable point-men, they're finely tuned killing machines more akin to Rangers (as are Army Rangers!) than that. Your halfling link-boy you con in to walking a few yards ahead, he's expendable. Your thief character shouldn't be... Just my two cents.

No, a thief is expendable not a green berret but both have a very dangerous job when taking point. In the case of the Green Berret movie, I believe Peeeetasan got taken out by a nasty gook trap (hense the comparison).

Early Green Berret actually are very similar to a 1E AD&D ranger (rather then thief) in job description. Replace giant class with COMMI BASTARDS for that +1 per level damage, and your almost there.