Knights & Knaves Alehouse

godentag wrote:

AxeMental wrote: I really think Detect Evil was supposed to be for those creatures and objects with supernatural evil or magical properties. Orcs are monsters, but still a race like humans.

Infact I can't think of any living creature native to the prime material plane that would glow magical due to their nature alone.

Red Dragons? Frost and Fire Giants? Ogre Magi?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

All powerful and heavily aligned with evil. See, that was easy.

TRP wrote:

godentag wrote:

AxeMental wrote: I really think Detect Evil was supposed to be for those creatures and objects with supernatural evil or magical properties. Orcs are monsters, but still a race like humans.

Infact I can't think of any living creature native to the prime material plane that would glow magical due to their nature alone.

Red Dragons? Frost and Fire Giants? Ogre Magi?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

All powerful and heavily aligned with evil. See, that was easy.

But do you really need a spell to tell you those things are evil? The main use of Detect Evil, at least in games I've played in, has been when the party comes across some abandoned altar or shrine and are trying to decide whether or not it's a good idea to touch it, loot it, pray at it, or avoid it altogether. And yeah, it's usually sort of a "no duh" spell that just confirms what the players were already pretty sure of anyway.

AxeMental wrote:Foster, do you think an evil/good holy symbol would be detectable (say under a cloak)? My impression is that the holy symbol, though blessed, is just a thing to focus the power, not the power itself (so perhaps as it was being used it might glow, assuming the person using it is a cleric). You get that "focusing tool" vibe watching old Hammer vampire movies: often times, the vampire will grab the cross from the hands of his would be slayer and crush it, saying something like "you have to believe for that to work". I just rewatched Fright Night a few weeks ago that had a scene like this. Since alot of what 1E clerics seem to be based on is Hammer films they should probably be considered.

Since we're already in house-rule territory with this, a reasonable interpretation might be that the holy symbol is detectable as good/evil while a spell is being cast using it and for a number of rounds afterward equal to the level of the spell cast (so if a cleric casts a 1st level spell his holy symbol will detect as good evil while the spell is being cast and the following round, a holy symbol used to cast a 5th level spell would detect as good/evil for 5 rounds after the spell was cast using it, etc.). This would apply to clerical holy symbols created/imbued using the Holy Symbol spell (per UA) -- the sort of non-magical "trinket" wooden, iron, and silver holy symbols any class can buy out of the PH are just "good luck charms" and would never detect as good or evil.

T. Foster wrote: But do you really need a spell to tell you those things are evil? The main use of Detect Evil, at least in games I've played in, has been when the party comes across some abandoned altar or shrine and are trying to decide whether or not it's a good idea to touch it, loot it, pray at it, or avoid it altogether. And yeah, it's usually sort of a "no duh" spell that just confirms what the players were already pretty sure of anyway.

Depends. If detect evil is being used as an early warning spell, it might be useful to know that down a certain passage are powerful evil aligned creatures. Of course, powerful evil creatures are also good candidates for monsters attempting to deceive the player characters.

T. Foster wrote:

TRP wrote:

godentag wrote:Red Dragons? Frost and Fire Giants? Ogre Magi?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

All powerful and heavily aligned with evil. See, that was easy.

But do you really need a spell to tell you those things are evil? The main use of Detect Evil, at least in games I've played in, has been when the party comes across some abandoned altar or shrine and are trying to decide whether or not it's a good idea to touch it, loot it, pray at it, or avoid it altogether. And yeah, it's usually sort of a "no duh" spell that just confirms what the players were already pretty sure of anyway.

It's not my fault if a player puts a spell to a dumb use.

TRP wrote:

T. Foster wrote:But do you really need a spell to tell you those things are evil? The main use of Detect Evil, at least in games I've played in, has been when the party comes across some abandoned altar or shrine and are trying to decide whether or not it's a good idea to touch it, loot it, pray at it, or avoid it altogether. And yeah, it's usually sort of a "no duh" spell that just confirms what the players were already pretty sure of anyway.

It's not my fault if a player puts a spell to a dumb use.

Which of these uses are you considering to be dumb? And what would you consider to be a smart use?

T. Foster wrote:

AxeMental wrote:Foster, do you think an evil/good holy symbol would be detectable (say under a cloak)? My impression is that the holy symbol, though blessed, is just a thing to focus the power, not the power itself (so perhaps as it was being used it might glow, assuming the person using it is a cleric). You get that "focusing tool" vibe watching old Hammer vampire movies: often times, the vampire will grab the cross from the hands of his would be slayer and crush it, saying something like "you have to believe for that to work". I just rewatched Fright Night a few weeks ago that had a scene like this. Since alot of what 1E clerics seem to be based on is Hammer films they should probably be considered.

Since we're already in house-rule territory with this, a reasonable interpretation might be that the holy symbol is detectable as good/evil while a spell is being cast using it and for a number of rounds afterward equal to the level of the spell cast (so if a cleric casts a 1st level spell his holy symbol will detect as good evil while the spell is being cast and the following round, a holy symbol used to cast a 5th level spell would detect as good/evil for 5 rounds after the spell was cast using it, etc.). This would apply to clerical holy symbols created/imbued using the Holy Symbol spell (per UA) -- the sort of non-magical "trinket" wooden, iron, and silver holy symbols any class can buy out of the PH are just "good luck charms" and would never detect as good or evil.

Hey thats a nice touch, the slow drain out of energy (kind of like when you turn the power off something and the LED stay on for 30 seconds or so before puffing out.

T. Foster wrote:

TRP wrote:

T. Foster wrote:But do you really need a spell to tell you those things are evil? The main use of Detect Evil, at least in games I've played in, has been when the party comes across some abandoned altar or shrine and are trying to decide whether or not it's a good idea to touch it, loot it, pray at it, or avoid it altogether. And yeah, it's usually sort of a "no duh" spell that just confirms what the players were already pretty sure of anyway.

It's not my fault if a player puts a spell to a dumb use.

Which of these uses are you considering to be dumb? And what would you consider to be a smart use?

I was only initially answering the specific question if detect evil would work on powerful, evil creatures. Casting the spell to detect if the listed creatures were evil would be classified as "dumb".

It's "dumb" to cast the spell on something already known to be evil, or to cast it on something that should be treated as if it were. Also, just because something doesn't detect as evil, doesn't mean it's not evil. So, it's actually a waste of spell if you're going to approach a creature, or thing, cautiously anyway. When, where and how to use divination is a gauge of player skill, and possibly player intelligence.

"I cast detect evil on the black granite altar with the blood grooves on top and throbbing purple veins throughout."
"It doesn't detect evil? Oh well, then, I go lie down upon it!"

Or, if you like something more subtle.

"I cast detect evil on the polearm-wielding, somewhat ogre-ish creature with the glaring eyes."
If it doesn't register evil are you going to invite to it tea? If it registers evil, are you going to immediately attack it?

Now, if you want to cast a detect evil in prelude to a protection from evil spell (sort of like approaching an unidentified starship with your shields up and phaser on standby), well, that might not be dumb. If, however, that's your MO anyway, then why'd you cast detect evil?

Nice sig TRP. A first.

Brilliant.

Considering that both Red Dragons and Ogre Magi could both be quite capable of polymorphing into entirely non-aggressive forms (in more convincing ways than that stinker in S2), I think it is rather important to know whether they might be detectable by this spell.

godentag wrote:Considering that both Red Dragons and Ogre Magi could both be quite capable of polymorphing into entirely non-aggressive forms (in more convincing ways than that stinker in S2), I think it is rather important to know whether they might be detectable by this spell.

There's always Know Alignment. Having gone back and actually re-read what the books have to say, I'm firmly convinced that, at least as of the time the DMG was published, the intent was definitely that the spell be useful for detecting evil locations and objects and other-planar influences, but generally NOT evil creatures (for which you're presumably supposed to use Know Alignment). The 8th level rule of thumb is given as part of a minimum baseline - "characters who are [1] very strongly aligned, [2] do not stray from their faith, and [3] who are of relatively high level (at least 8th or higher) might radiate evil or good if they are [4] intent upon appropriate actions" (emphasis mine) -- being at least 8th level is just one of 4 qualifying conditions that must be met in order for there to even be a possibility of the spell/ability picking up emanations from a character.

Given these criteria, and the explicitly listed exceptions ("powerful monsters such as demons, devils, ki-rin and the like" and "aligned undead," i.e. creatures with explicit supernatural extra-planar connections) I don't think there's any question that an orc, or even a large group of orcs, would NOT be detectable by this spell, unless perhaps there were 100 or more of them and they were in the act of an unholy worship/sacrifice service as the spell was being cast. Red dragons would not generally be detectable, but a particularly evil HARD might be if it was doing something especially pro-actively evil when the spell is cast; ogre magi and evil giants would fall somewhere in-between -- very unlikely that a lone individual would ever be detectable, but the larger the group and the more evil the activity they're currently engaged in, the more likely they'll give off the appropriate aura. OTOH even a single lowly manes, nupperibo, ghoul, or larva will always be detectable because of their supernatural/extra-planar taint.

At least that's my understanding of the BTB DMG rules (and I'm a little surprised at how well it tracks with my suggested "house rule" interpretation above -- I guess I'd internalized this passage more than I realized).

T. Foster wrote:There's always Know Alignment. Having gone back and actually re-read what the books have to say, I'm firmly convinced that, at least as of the time the DMG was published, the intent was definitely that the spell be useful for detecting evil locations and objects and other-planar influences, but generally NOT evil creatures (for which you're presumably supposed to use Know Alignment). The 8th level rule of thumb is given as part of a minimum baseline - "characters who are [1] very strongly aligned, [2] do not stray from their faith, and [3] who are of relatively high level (at least 8th or higher) might radiate evil or good if they are [4] intent upon appropriate actions" (emphasis mine) -- being at least 8th level is just one of 4 qualifying conditions that must be met in order for there to even be a possibility of the spell/ability picking up emanations from a character.

Given these criteria, and the explicitly listed exceptions ("powerful monsters such as demons, devils, ki-rin and the like" and "aligned undead," i.e. creatures with explicit supernatural extra-planar connections) I don't think there's any question that an orc, or even a large group of orcs, would NOT be detectable by this spell, unless perhaps there were 100 or more of them and they were in the act of an unholy worship/sacrifice service as the spell was being cast. Red dragons would not generally be detectable, but a particularly evil HARD might be if it was doing something especially pro-actively evil when the spell is cast; ogre magi and evil giants would fall somewhere in-between -- very unlikely that a lone individual would ever be detectable, but the larger the group and the more evil the activity they're currently engaged in, the more likely they'll give off the appropriate aura. OTOH even a single lowly manes, nupperibo, ghoul, or larva will always be detectable because of their supernatural/extra-planar taint.

At least that's my understanding of the BTB DMG rules (and I'm a little surprised at how well it tracks with my suggested "house rule" interpretation above -- I guess I'd internalized this passage more than I realized).

That actually makes a good deal of sense. The "Evil" referred to by the spell/ability is not the evil axis of alignment, but is actually the intense, metaphysical essence of Evil.

Foster: "and they were in the act of an unholy worship/sacrifice service as the spell was being cast."


I'd say anyone capable and actively creating some link to an evil realm (where the evil is coming in to the prime material) would be detectable. A sacrifice might bring the eye of some powerful demon, but an evil priest simply casting light would not. In those cases you'd probably need something to aid (like an alter, which would glow evil anyway).

You could say use it to detect the presence of Hitler or Goebbels in a clown suit but not a Nazi grunt in disguise. At least that's what happened in our last session.