Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I’m sure this has come up before, but I’ll just ask again real quick:

A Ranger Lord casts magic missile. For purposes of this spell, does he have ten levels of experience (five missiles) or two levels of experience (one missile)?

There is no definite answer, people feel passionately about both points of view. Personally, I judge their spell ability based on the level at which they first gained access to spell use. Not sure if it was spelt out one way or the other in OSRIC off hand.

IIRC, according to Dragon Sage Advice he counts as 2nd level (and that's the way I've always done it). Of course, since Sage Advice is a secondary and not always reliable source, feel free to rule the other way if that's what you prefer

Apparently, Sage Advice in Dragon #33 and #64 give different answers. Here is a thread at Dragonsfoot where it is mentioned that Gygax took the more conservative approach: Paladin/Ranger Spell Ability Level.

T. Foster wrote:IIRC, according to Dragon Sage Advice he counts as 2nd level (and that's the way I've always done it).

This interpretation always seemed the most reasonable to me and it's the one we used back in the day, if only because it seemed odd for a fighter sub-class to suddenly gain such potent magical abilities immediately upon learning them.

I go with caster level=character level. A few spells at high level aren't even close to overshadowing the spellcasters, and they are actually of some use that way.

Oddly, I've generally ruled opposite ways for caster level and for psionic power level. Psionic power level, I've ruled it's the number of levels you've had the power. In other words, if you acquired the power at 5th level and you're 7th level now, you use the power at level 3. Caster level for paladins and rangers, I've used caster level = character level.

I guess I've generally rationalized it by the fact that first level spells are generally less powerful than the psionic disciplines. However, A. I'm not entirely sure that's true and B. it would probably make more sense to be consistent.

Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter much whether the 10th level ranger or paladin is casting 1st level spells at 1st or 10th level of ability. Other than Magic Missile, we're largely taking about increased ranges, durations, and areas of effect. We're not suddenly turning Light, for example, into a world-killing spell, and the ranger and paladin will still generally be far more effective when resorting to their melee attacks. Whereas whether that 5th level character is using Telekinisis or Molecular Manipulation at a 1st or 5th level of mastery may be quite a bit more relevant.

I've always ruled it caster level does not equal character level.

Probably because the first ranger in my games that got to that point learned his spells from a 7th level M-U. Wouldn't make sense to have him better than his mentor from the get go.

I compromise and go with half level.

PS: No one ever takes magic missile though. It's not the magic-user casting level that's as important as the druid casting level. What I'm sick of is "Yay, I'm an 8th level ranger, so that's 16 hit dice of animal companions. I think I'll get three tigers." So by going half level, they still get 8 hit dice of animal companions, which is still potent but doesn't make the druid feel redundant.

PPS: When I play rangers, I take for m-u spells in this order:
protection from evil
feather fall or spider climb
strength
detect invisibility or knock

Magic Missile is better than Protection from Evil, surely? Automatically cancel an opponent’s spell, automatically cause SOME damage (maybe to something you can’t hit otherwise)?

Falconer wrote:Magic Missile is better than Protection from Evil, surely? Automatically cancel an opponent’s spell, automatically cause SOME damage (maybe to something you can’t hit otherwise)?

If I'm fighting a hill giant I want to get the PfE while dishing out weapon damage+10 instead, with 3/2 attacks

ken-do-nim wrote:I compromise and go with half level.

PS: No one ever takes magic missile though. It's not the magic-user casting level that's as important as the druid casting level. What I'm sick of is "Yay, I'm an 8th level ranger, so that's 16 hit dice of animal companions. I think I'll get three tigers." So by going half level, they still get 8 hit dice of animal companions, which is still potent but doesn't make the druid feel redundant.

PPS: When I play rangers, I take for m-u spells in this order:
protection from evil
feather fall or spider climb
strength
detect invisibility or knock

This isn't a bad way to go

Eye of the Beholder wrote:If I'm fighting a hill giant I want to get the PfE while dishing out weapon damage+10 instead, with 3/2 attacks

Not to mention the fact that protection from evil does some stuff that a ranger has no other way to do (the main example being physically hedging out a variety of creatures), whereas magic missile is merely a slightly different twist on something a ranger can already do (lay down some damage at range).

We have always used 1st level.

AxeMental wrote:We have always used 1st level.

Do you mean, a paladin or ranger casts spells at 1st level regardless how high a level the character is?