Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I don't hate the concept of a cat-burglar class, but the execution of the thief-acrobat is fatally flawed because their abilities at even fairly high levels are crap. When creating the class Gygax apparently looked up Olympic World Records in various disciplines (pole vaulting, long jumping, etc.), assigned those numbers as the abilities of a, like, 20th level acrobat, and filled in the rest of the table by adjusting downwards from there, which is very problematic because it ends up meaning that even fairly high level acrobats (like, level 10-12) end up having athletic abilities no better than (or even worse than) a typical high-school athlete, which is just embarrassing. The class would've made a lot more sense if they had abilities on par with a world-class athlete pretty much right from the start (which is to say 6th level, which is fairly high level when you consider than 99% of the population is and always will be 0-level) and only got better from there, eventually being able to perform super-human feats like a character in a Chinese wu xia movie (jump 100', balance on a single blade of grass, run across ceilings or water, catch missiles and throw them back at their attacker for full damage, fall any distance w/o damage, etc.). But an acrobat who has to be 18th level before having a reasonable chance of succeeding at the sort of stunts that Cirque du Soleil acrobats do 20 times (or more) a week with 100% reliability is the sign of a class that's broken.

Foster: "I don't hate the concept of a cat-burglar class, but the execution of the thief-acrobat is fatally flawed because their abilities at even fairly high levels are crap"

I'd think the 1E player pre-UA would say that their thief PC was a cat-burglar. What the hell does the post UA player think of his thief now, some fat bum, wasn't he already doing similar things just without all the props (so in one move Gygax stepped on the turf of the thief and monk, making both less). Luckily the UA Thief Acrobat is more a circus freak then anything else (we all laughed at it) so harm was minimal. Wow he jumps through the air, walks across ropes...his powder white face has a blue tear running down it...the sad clown.

So in the case of making a "cat-burglar" it couldn't have been done cool without hurting the pre-UA game. The barbarian on the other hand was fine to include because it didn't ruin anything else.

T. Foster wrote:When creating the class Gygax apparently looked up Olympic World Records in various disciplines (pole vaulting, long jumping, etc.), assigned those numbers as the abilities of a, like, 20th level acrobat, and filled in the rest of the table by adjusting downwards from there, which is very problematic because it ends up meaning that even fairly high level acrobats (like, level 10-12) end up having athletic abilities no better than (or even worse than) a typical high-school athlete, which is just embarrassing.

That's a very interesting insight and explains much. I only ever had one thief-acrobat in my campaigns of old and I distinctly recall how incompetent he was, much to the chagrin of his player, who eventually asked if he could "undo" his split class and go back to just being a thief.

James Maliszewski wrote:

T. Foster wrote:When creating the class Gygax apparently looked up Olympic World Records in various disciplines (pole vaulting, long jumping, etc.), assigned those numbers as the abilities of a, like, 20th level acrobat, and filled in the rest of the table by adjusting downwards from there, which is very problematic because it ends up meaning that even fairly high level acrobats (like, level 10-12) end up having athletic abilities no better than (or even worse than) a typical high-school athlete, which is just embarrassing.

That's a very interesting insight and explains much. I only ever had one thief-acrobat in my campaigns of old and I distinctly recall how incompetent he was, much to the chagrin of his player, who eventually asked if he could "undo" his split class and go back to just being a thief.

Note: I don't have any verification that that's what he did, it's just my guess based on comparing the numbers on the T-A skill table to numbers found via The Google and from talking to people (like Bedivere at DF, who's a gymnastics coach) who actually know about this kind of stuff IRL. Just in case that wasn't clear in my earlier post.

I agree.. you can see what I wrote about it when this came up as a potential pre-gen class for Foster's Garden of the Plant Master game.

Chainsaw wrote:I think I'll pass on the thief-acrobat for this adventure. I'd be willing to give it a shot under different circumstances - if, perhaps, the adventure were city-based, had a small party (2-3 people) and they were either full or part thieves. In other words, a cat burglar type adventure, I guess.

Even so, the abilities would need to be juiced up a bit, I think.

Edit: If I ever play a game with Axe, I think a funny joke would be to hand him a TA pre-gen at first. HAHAHA!

I think there's room for some other thief-carnie combinations to spice up your circus-based adventures. Thief-clown, or maybe thief-bearded-lady.

PatW wrote:I think there's room for some other thief-carnie combinations to spice up your circus-based adventures. Thief-clown, or maybe thief-bearded-lady.

Your megadungeon probably needs a whole room full of guys doing flips and shit.

T. Foster wrote:eventually being able to perform super-human feats like a character in a Chinese wu xia movie (jump 100', balance on a single blade of grass, run across ceilings or water, catch missiles and throw them back at their attacker for full damage, fall any distance w/o damage, etc.).

And the Monk already covers that niche.

One more thing, since when does a cat burgler do any of the shit described in the UA (remember a thief already climbs walls at 95+)?

Now here is a cat burglar in "To Cetch a Thief"

Matthew wrote:Awesome. You know, I just realised that films like this are what I summon to mind when I think of "America".

That's because those films are accurate! Those films just chronicle the every-day life of your average American! Now if you'll excuse me I have to fire up the chainsaw strapped to my hand, someone's knockin' on the door...

My biggest fault with the TA is that the fairly common ability of flying makes most of what they can do useless. What a drag it would be to try the TA, and then shortly after switching you get a ring of flying. Giving the thief the option to gain the TA abilities, and keep advancing with the original thief skills with a modified experience point chart may be an option I would allow.

The terrible distances were obvious to us back in grade school, when we were better at track & field.

However, EVASION is the class's only saving grace, and the ability to avoid attacks is bono (extra stun chances ain't bad either, nor is less falling damage).

Chello!

A whole guild of very edible thief-acrobats at work.

Octopussy...that should have its own thread. Just wow.

Lord Kjeran wrote:Chello!

A whole guild of very edible thief-acrobats at work.

James Bond in French is very .. very .. wrong. I may not sleep tonight.