Apparently, I'm mean to the thief.

[JCBoney]

What the hell was a cloud giant doing in an open street? Fogging everything up?

Punching things for 6-36 points of damage, throwing rocks for 2-24

Sounds like east side Little Rock on a Saturday night.

[Ghul]

Double D, it sounds like your players are conflating back stab with back attack. BTB (as adeptly illustrated upthread), a back stab recipient must be unaware of the attack; otherwise, the standard back attack rule applies. Ideally, the required element of surprise should encourage the use of hide in shadows and/or move silently.

[mjudge55]

On a related note, I had a question for folks: Say a lone thief attempts to hide in shadows and/or move silently on an opponent he is aware of but who is, obviously, unaware of him. If the thief fails his HS/MS rolls, does he still get a unilateral surprise roll? If he surprises, is his cover blown such that you have the kind of situation AxeMental described where the opponent is surprised by but aware of the thief? Or is the thief still undetected?

My thinking is that the thief should get the surprise roll and, in general, if he surprises, his opponent is unaware of him until he elects to make his presence known, or his presence can no longer be concealed.

Any thoughts? Sorry if I overlooked an obvious by the book answer.

[Lord Cias]

On a related note, I had a question for folks: Say a lone thief attempts to hide in shadows and/or move silently on an opponent he is aware of but who is, obviously, unaware of him. If the thief fails his HS/MS rolls, does he still get a unilateral surprise roll? If he surprises, is his cover blown such that you have the kind of situation AxeMental described where the opponent is surprised by but aware of the thief? Or is the thief still undetected?

My thinking is that the thief should get the surprise roll and, in general, if he surprises, his opponent is unaware of him until he elects to make his presence known, or his presence can no longer be concealed.

Any thoughts? Sorry if I overlooked an obvious by the book answer.

A successful hide in shadows or move silent roll increases the thief's chance to surprise opponents, although exactly how much it improves it is up to the DM (some give a 4 in 6 chance others allow automatic surprise). A failed roll does not necessarily mean automatic detection, the thief still has normal surprise chances (2 in 6). Note that the RAW does not actually state this explicitly, this is purely interpretation based on various "clues" given throughout the rules and my own personal judgement.

[Matthew]

The clues are pretty clear, though, in that the thief ability section tells us that move silently improves the chance of surprise, and we have an example of a silenced and invisible party getting a 4-in-6 chance.

[mjudge55]

The clues are pretty clear, though, in that the thief ability section tells us that move silently improves the chance of surprise, and we have an example of a silenced and invisible party getting a 4-in-6 chance.

Thanks guys, brilliant. So the procedure for a thief's backstab is

1. Approach monster
2. Execute Move Silently and/or Hide in Shadows to maneuver behind monster)
3. Roll for surprise.
--- a. If Move Silently/Hide in Shadows successful, surprise occurs on a 4 in 6.
--- b. If Move Silently/Hide In Shadows unsuccessful, surprise occurs on a 2 in 6.
4. Close and attack
--- a. Roll for Encounter Distance
--- b. If monster surprised, and thief able to close, backstab attack at +4 to hit, multiply damage by appropriate factor
--- c. If monster unsurprised, roll Initiative

I wish there was a condensed DMG written like this!

[AxeMental]

. What weapon does te thief currently wield? A dagger? If you're going to shoe horn him into a stealthy role with sub par weapons, then you should let him have extra backstabs. That's my only point. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you.

Bullshit. Thieves can use broad and long swords as well. Hardly sub par. I've personally played thieves that could hold their own in straight melee.

Agreed, check out the thief prof. list.

DD, keep in mind that when you have a busy game and alot of action going on, I think its OK to abstract MS and HIS situations that result in back stab, the same way we do it with finding traps.

[sepulchre]

Mjudge55 wrote:

If Move Silently/Hide in Shadows successful, surprise occurs on a 4 in 6.

Success indicates, surprise occurs on a 3in6. Your thief is either hidden or silent and definitely not invisible. Elves have the advantage of 4in6.

Philotomy wrote:

This is veering off-topic, but I like the concept of the Thief re-tooled as a Fighter subclass.

Continued digression...see bandit/brigand add a few static d6 abilities

[Ghul]

The clues are pretty clear, though, in that the thief ability section tells us that move silently improves the chance of surprise, and we have an example of a silenced and invisible party getting a 4-in-6 chance.

Thanks guys, brilliant. So the procedure for a thief's backstab is

1. Approach monster
2. Execute Move Silently and/or Hide in Shadows to maneuver behind monster)
3. Roll for surprise.
--- a. If Move Silently/Hide in Shadows successful, surprise occurs on a 4 in 6.
--- b. If Move Silently/Hide In Shadows unsuccessful, surprise occurs on a 2 in 6.
4. Close and attack
--- a. Roll for Encounter Distance
--- b. If monster surprised, and thief able to close, backstab attack at +4 to hit, multiply damage by appropriate factor
--- c. If monster unsurprised, roll Initiative

I wish there was a condensed DMG written like this!

The 4-in-6 chance is fine, but in general I would assign this probability to a wary opponent. If the opponent is not in any way on the alert, I might rule the surprise as automatic.

[mjudge55]

If you know a player wants a certain magic item, drop that item in the game, tell th where it is (or make them work to find out) and let them go after it. What 4th level hero or burglar (even bilbo!) doesn't deserve a shot at a glowing semi-intelligent sword? I'm not saying hand it to them. I'm not even saying you should tell them where it is without some effort on their part to learn about it.

At first I had a bad reaction to this suggestion, based on a game I played in where a player was asking the DM to insert certain kinds of magic items tailored to his character into the game. I found the whole thing incredibly hokey and contrived.

But if a player seeks out a sage in game looking for info on an item he wants, as in the example you provide, that's a just add water (immersive!) adventure and totally sweet by my book.

[Matthew]

Thanks guys, brilliant. So the procedure for a thief's backstab is

1. Approach monster
2. Execute Move Silently and/or Hide in Shadows to maneuver behind monster)
3. Roll for surprise.
--- a. If Move Silently/Hide in Shadows successful, surprise occurs on a 4 in 6.
--- b. If Move Silently/Hide In Shadows unsuccessful, surprise occurs on a 2 in 6.
4. Close and attack
--- a. Roll for Encounter Distance
--- b. If monster surprised, and thief able to close, backstab attack at +4 to hit, multiply damage by appropriate factor
--- c. If monster unsurprised, roll Initiative

I wish there was a condensed DMG written like this!

Success indicates, surprise occurs on a 3in6. Your thief is either hidden or silent and definitely not invisible. Elves have the advantage of 4in6.

It depends on what the game master thinks at that juncture, but anything from 3-in-6 to 4-in-6 seems reasonable. If a thief is hidden in shadows and makes his move silently then 4-in-6 seems very likely indeed.

[mjudge55]

Thanks guys, brilliant. So the procedure for a thief's backstab is

1. Approach monster
2. Execute Move Silently and/or Hide in Shadows to maneuver behind monster)
3. Roll for surprise.
--- a. If Move Silently/Hide in Shadows successful, surprise occurs on a 4 in 6.
--- b. If Move Silently/Hide In Shadows unsuccessful, surprise occurs on a 2 in 6.
4. Close and attack
--- a. Roll for Encounter Distance
--- b. If monster surprised, and thief able to close, backstab attack at +4 to hit, multiply damage by appropriate factor
--- c. If monster unsurprised, roll Initiative

I wish there was a condensed DMG written like this!

Success indicates, surprise occurs on a 3in6. Your thief is either hidden or silent and definitely not invisible. Elves have the advantage of 4in6.

It depends on what the game master thinks at that juncture, but anything from 3-in-6 to 4-in-6 seems reasonable. If a thief is hidden in shadows and makes his move silently then 4-in-6 seems very likely indeed.

That's good logic. I might go with 4 in 6 generally since it's already so difficult!

Maybe you have some insight into another one that's got me stumped: Say the party is in a room and hears monsters approaching the door. The thief successfully hides in a strategic position, hoping for a backstab. The monsters open the door, and unilateral surprise is rolled.

The thief, if he wants to backstab, will need to hold off on acting until the monsters enter the room and have their backs to him. By that time, surprise will already have been determined. Assuming the thief already successfully hid in shadows and is moving silently (maybe he gets a bonus to this due to the ruckus), does he then make his own "surprise" roll, 3 or 4 in 6, to see if the monster is unaware of him?

[Matthew]

Maybe you have some insight into another one that's got me stumped: Say the party is in a room and hears monsters approaching the door. The thief successfully hides in a strategic position, hoping for a backstab. The monsters open the door, and unilateral surprise is rolled.

The thief, if he wants to backstab, will need to hold off on acting until the monsters enter the room and have their backs to him. By that time, surprise will already have been determined. Assuming the thief already successfully hid in shadows and is moving silently (maybe he gets a bonus to this due to the ruckus), does he then make his own "surprise" roll, 3 or 4 in 6, to see if the monster is unaware of him?

If the party is aware of the monsters there is no chance of them being surprised, so all you have to worry about is whether they catch the monsters unawares when they enter the chamber. On a 1 or 2 they will get 1-2 segments of surprise, on a 3 the thief will get an extra segment. The surprise distance rules are written from the point of view that neither party is aware of the other, so you have to use some discretion in this alternative scenario. For instance, if you rule that surprise takes place when the door opens because the other characters are just standing around in the room, it would probably be appropriate to allow the thief to act in whatever round of combat seems reasonable unless discovered beforehand, treating the attack as equivalent to a surprise situation. You may require that the player's win surprise for the back stab to be allowed, even though it takes place outside of the surprise segments.

[thedungeondelver]

A successful hide in shadows, if applicable, can presumably make the opponent unaware of the thief’s location.

I would definitely allow the backstab if the thief hides in shadows and then the enemy sweeps past the hiding place.

[sepulchre]

Matthew wrote:

If a thief is hidden in shadows and makes his move silently then 4-in-6 seems very likely indeed.

Given that a thief is one or the other, that is still and hidden or moving silently, I have imagined 3in6 to make more sense. Elves on the other hand have the advantage of being not only unheard as they move but also unseen.

Mjudge55 wrote:

I might go with 4 in 6 generally since it's already so difficult!

And it should be, as the opposed die roll of surprise is when neither party is initially aware of the other. The surprise die is basically an early initiative die, and unlike initiative it can be modified. If you have the advantage of an ambush or 'automatic surprise' then the die roll is not opposed and achieving surprise is not so difficult.