Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Semaj Khan wrote:What the hell was a cloud giant doing in an open street? Fogging everything up?

Punching things for 6-36 points of damage, throwing rocks for 2-24

DungeonDork wrote:

Ragnorakk wrote: (sneaking up to the giant in melee after an end run)

ok, i got in a huge argument once with someone at DF over backstabbing giants.
I say you have to be able to reach a vital point on the target, I think the description reads this way. To me that is not possible if a human or smaller target is backstabbing a giant and they are both standing on the same level ground. I can see it possibly with a spear or if you allow ranged attackd but not if they haved to be attacking the legs. Thoughts?


Damn, I digressed again.

A slash through the sciatic nerve in the lower buttocks or hamstringing or slicing lower leg arteries to make blood literally fall out in great torrents is reaching a "vital point".

DungeonDork wrote:

Ragnorakk wrote: (sneaking up to the giant in melee after an end run)

ok, i got in a huge argument once with someone at DF over backstabbing giants.
I say you have to be able to reach a vital point on the target, I think the description reads this way. To me that is not possible if a human or smaller target is backstabbing a giant and they are both standing on the same level ground. I can see it possibly with a spear or if you allow ranged attackd but not if they haved to be attacking the legs. Thoughts?


Damn, I digressed again.

A thief can backstab a giant by pulling a, "king Edward II" on him.

Bargle wrote:If your player's thief is at least 4th level and doesn't yet have an intelligent magical swo

what

Heroes need a sword with a name (to parphrase someone else)

Also. There is great quote in the Ryth chronicles (that 80 page game log from 1974 recently uncovered). Where the players were able to get down to the 8th level of the dungeon and from there a mystical man told each of their characters where they might find the magic item of their dreams (obviously the loot each player had been bugging the DM's about).

If you know a player wants a certain magic item, drop that item in the game, tell th where it is (or make them work to find out) and let them go after it. What 4th level hero or burglar (even bilbo!) doesn't deserve a shot at a glowing semi-intelligent sword? I'm not saying hand it to them. I'm not even saying you should tell them where it is without some effort on their part to learn about it.

But put it in the game for a Skilled player to get.

I don't know what level the thief is in your game, ad I don't know if he's been fighting with a rusty dagger+1 or not. But perhaps he's begging to be able to backstab in combat not because he wants to backstab, but because no matter how skilled he is as a player, he's not getting the equipment he needs to be effective in combat.

The use of Intelligent swords are the most important class ability of fighters and (thieves.) Gygax and arneson said plain as day in the description of the fighting man in 0d&d. In 0d&d 100% of magic swords were intelligent. This was the fighting man (and by extension the thieves) most valuable asset--a magical henchman.

AxeMental wrote:I've never heard that before Cias. My understanding is that its +2 (attacking from behind with total surprise) for all but thieves and assassins employing back stab. Do you have the reference,would like to see it.

You know, I could have sworn this was explicitly stated in the DMG but I can't find it! Looks like I was mistaken (get a screen shot of this, I don't often admit to being wrong! ).

thedungeondelver wrote:

DungeonDork wrote:

Ragnorakk wrote: (sneaking up to the giant in melee after an end run)

ok, i got in a huge argument once with someone at DF over backstabbing giants.
I say you have to be able to reach a vital point on the target, I think the description reads this way. To me that is not possible if a human or smaller target is backstabbing a giant and they are both standing on the same level ground. I can see it possibly with a spear or if you allow ranged attackd but not if they haved to be attacking the legs. Thoughts?


Damn, I digressed again.

A slash through the sciatic nerve in the lower buttocks or hamstringing or slicing lower leg arteries to make blood literally fall out in great torrents is reaching a "vital point".

This. Also see bottom of page 173 of the DMG - illustration of a hobbit stabbing a stone giant in the gut.

Bargle wrote:This was the fighting man (and by extension the thieves) most valuable asset--a magical henchman.

Yeah, one that can completely dominate you . . .

DungeonDork wrote: ok, i got in a huge argument once with someone at DF over backstabbing giants.
I say you have to be able to reach a vital point on the target, I think the description reads this way. To me that is not possible if a human or smaller target is backstabbing a giant and they are both standing on the same level ground. I can see it possibly with a spear or if you allow ranged attackd but not if they haved to be attacking the legs. Thoughts?

I think there is some greek Hero who might have a word or two to say about vital locations near to the ground.....what was that guy's name again? Achilles or something?

francisca wrote:

DungeonDork wrote: ok, i got in a huge argument once with someone at DF over backstabbing giants.
I say you have to be able to reach a vital point on the target, I think the description reads this way. To me that is not possible if a human or smaller target is backstabbing a giant and they are both standing on the same level ground. I can see it possibly with a spear or if you allow ranged attackd but not if they haved to be attacking the legs. Thoughts?

I think there is some greek Hero who might have a word or two to say about vital locations near to the ground.....what was that guy's name again? Achilles or something?

Obviously an exception!

Bargle wrote:Heroes need a sword with a name (to parphrase someone else)

Scalpel, Cat's Claw and Greywand were all utterly disposable (and non-magical) weapons. Leiber describes them as being lost, sold or stolen and replaced with others many times over, but Fafhrd and Mouser always called them by those names.

If you know a player wants a certain magic item, drop that item in the game,

No.

I'm not running 4th edition. Besides, this has nothing to do with the initial thesis which was getting backstab attacks in tight quarters.

Yeah I think that the important thing is that the thief has to be able to approach unnoticed. Spending a round in normal melee and then disengaging to hide in shadows and sneak about just doesn't cut it (for me anyway). It is not necessarily that all opponents are going to be keeping an eye out all the time, but I think that the conditions for back-stab should not be trivially met. When I was running games it was a very rare occurrence in dungeons, where space & maneuverability is limited, monsters seeing in the dark, etc... the only times I can remember it was in a few ambush situations.

Lord Cias:

DMG page 70: " Rear attacks: opponents attacking from the rear gain a +2 to hit, negate any consideration for shield, and also negate any consideration for dexterity."

I'm not running 4th edition. Besides, this has nothing to do with the initial thesis which was getting backstab attacks in tight quarters.

Hey it's your game. I'm just wondering if your player is asking for extra chances to backstab because of the way you perhaps(!) might be shoe horning his character or not.

For the record, the play report of the DM putting magic items in the world the players wanted was from 1974. He didt give them to them he made the follow a quest to find a wise man, and then the wiseman told each player the the magic item was and what was guarding it...that's hardly a treasure packet handed out to undeserving PCs.




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I'd like you to answer the question though. What weapon does te thief currently wield? A dagger? If you're going to shoe horn him into a stealthy role with sub par weapons, then you should let him have extra backstabs. That's my only point. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you.

Bargle wrote:. What weapon does te thief currently wield? A dagger? If you're going to shoe horn him into a stealthy role with sub par weapons, then you should let him have extra backstabs. That's my only point. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you.

Bullshit. Thieves can use broad and long swords as well. Hardly sub par. I've personally played thieves that could hold their own in straight melee.