Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Was there some rule or mod at some point about Vampires being able to cast spells based on their previous lives, similar to Liches? Or, more likely, am I simply misremembering?

Welleran wrote:Was there some rule or mod at some point about Vampires being able to cast spells based on their previous lives, similar to Liches? Or, more likely, am I simply misremembering?

I'm pretty sure it's right there in the MM -- that vampires who had class abilities when alive retain those abilities as vampires -- thus vampire magic-users, clerics (necessarily CE), fighters, and thieves. I don't think the notion that to have become a vampire the character would have been reduced to 0-level (and thus lost all those class abilities) was addressed -- presumably the vampire-character's effective level is whatever the character's level was before getting drained and turned into a vampire...

Thanks. The MM is a bit vague, but the idea is in there.

My players are getting pretty tactically proficient so I am upping my deep dungeon monsters...

T. Foster wrote:... presumably the vampire-character's effective level is whatever the character's level was before getting drained and turned into a vampire...

The question of how long before could logically arise, I think. (Is a vampire stronger in magic if he or she was drained in a single 'encounter'? What constitutes an 'encounter'?)

There are a lot of implicit assumptions in old D&D, from the sleep spell in D&D Vol. 1 to things like this. The usual situation is pretty straightforward, but there's no systematic application to unusual situations.

Hence, many of the rules constructs in later games.

Go to the DMG, p 179. It shows vampires with class levels and spell use as clerics and magic-users in the random monster tables.

What level do you think is a good match for a nominal vampire?

Clangador wrote:What level do you think is a good match for a nominal vampire?

It's not so much the level that matters as the savvy and equipment of the PC's. It is totally conceivable that a crackerjack troop of 1st level PCs could defeat a vampire, while a bunch of level 10 numbnutz would lose half their levels in a straightup fight.

darnizhaan wrote:Go to the DMG, p 179. It shows vampires with class levels and spell use as clerics and magic-users in the random monster tables.

By Jove, that's it!

TheRedPriest wrote:

Clangador wrote:What level do you think is a good match for a nominal vampire?

It's not so much the level that matters as the savvy and equipment of the PC's. It is totally conceivable that a crackerjack troop of 1st level PCs could defeat a vampire, while a bunch of level 10 numbnutz would lose half their levels in a straightup fight.

I concur with that assessment. That's one of the reasons I needed to beef one up with spells. I've abused my players in our current campaign so long that they have become extremely wily killers.

THIS is why I like AD&D. These points in the game implicity require individual DM interpretation and style. How about giving us a writeup of your spell-casting vampire badass?

Kellri wrote:THIS is why I like AD&D. These points in the game implicity require individual DM interpretation and style. How about giving us a writeup of your spell-casting vampire badass?

Well, since I use your Encounter Reference and Stat Block books extensively, it seems only fair to share! Some background is in order to frame things a bit, I think...

Background: This Vampire is not necessarily intended as a major villain -- I operate by designing my dungeons and letting the players run wild through them -- I don't give too much thought to how they will handle things since I consider that their problem. The players' actions, modified by the dice, will determine how things play out (as modified by ideas of my own and some common sense). My current campaign (session #73 tonight!) is a megadungeon, once the citadel of an evil demigod (think Iuz) who was thrown down many centuries before, though the history is really fuzzy, at least as far as the players are concerned. The Vampire resides on the seventh level, which is actually a very large underground lake with an ancient walled town connected by bridges and causeways to various shore areas, many of which connect to sub-levels. The town, being deep in an evil dungeon far from civilization, is occupied by all sorts of weirdos and dangerous sorts, not as deadly by a long shot as the Vault of the Drow, nor near as hostile. Anyway, the Vampire is one of the townies, a possible foe and certainly on the wandering monster tables. Since he is only one of many, many entries, the description of his lair is very sketchy at present.

The Vampire:
BAEL THE VAMPIRE: One of the city’s older inhabitants is the Vampire known as Bael (MOVE12fly18 AC1 HD8+3 HP66 #AT1 THACO12 DAM5-10 XP4400); magic to hit; drains 2 levels on hit; regenerate 3HP/rnd; Gaseous Form at 0 HP or at will; immune to sleep/charm/hold/poison/paralysis; ½ damage from electricity/cold attacks; Shape Change into bat/wolf/rat at will; Charm gaze (saves at -2); summon 10-100 rats/bats in 2-12 rnds; formerly a magic-user Lv12.
Spells: (4/4/4/4/4/1): Detect Magic, Hold Portal, Magic Missile x2, Darkness 15’ Radius, Detect Invisible, Mirror Image, Web, Blink, Dispel Magic, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Dimension Door, Ice Storm, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Wall of Fire, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Feeblemind, Wall of Stone, Death Spell.

Bael is served by three lesser, female Vampires (MOVE12fly18 AC1 HD8+3 HP40 #AT1 THACO12 DAM5-10 XP4200); abilities as above. [What can I say, it's a classic!]

Bael and his mistresses keep to themselves and are seldom seem, except by their periodic victims. They haunt both the Hidden City slums, as well as beyond the Dark Sea, careful, of course, to avoid flying in and out of the city and arousing the Air Elementals. They are uninterested in much beyond their own solitude and the occasional hunt for their meals. Their preferred tactic is to beguile victims to return with them to their lair, where they will be kept for a time to be devoured at leisure. A few city dwellers suspect their presence, but none wish to look into the matter too closely.

The coffins for these vampires are on the second level of the building. They are well guarded by four Charmed Wererats (MOVE9 AC6 HD3+1 HP25 #AT1 THACO17 DAM1-8 XP210); 1%/HP damage of Lycanthropy; Silver or Magic to hit and 20 Giant Rats (MOVE12 AC7 HD½ HP2 #AT1 THACO20 DAM1-3 5% Disease XP10), as well as a number of traps and the like...

TheRedPriest wrote:

Clangador wrote:What level do you think is a good match for a nominal vampire?

It's not so much the level that matters as the savvy and equipment of the PC's. It is totally conceivable that a crackerjack troop of 1st level PCs could defeat a vampire, while a bunch of level 10 numbnutz would lose half their levels in a straightup fight.

They better be super duper crackerjack with a really kewl toy inside to even consider it.

This is interesting because I always wondered how to give hit points and hit dice for vampires with class level. Right now if I had a 14th level M-U vampire, I think I would roll for M-U hp (9d4 + 5 + possible CON bonus) and for vampire hp (8d8 +3) and use whichever is higher. Same for "to hit" and saving throws, use whichever is more favorable.

darnizhaan wrote:This is interesting because I always wondered how to give hit points and hit dice for vampires with class level. Right now if I had a 14th level M-U vampire, I think I would roll for M-U hp (9d4 + 5 + possible CON bonus) and for vampire hp (8d8 +3) and use whichever is higher. Same for "to hit" and saving throws, use whichever is more favorable.

I've always had the vampire HD count for up to level 8 and any levels beyond that get their normal class-based hp (so a 13th level fighter vampire would have 8d8+3+1d10+12 hp). I'm not sure where I came up with that -- I may well have just made it up out of whole cloth -- but it seems consistent with

darnizhaan wrote:This is interesting because I always wondered how to give hit points and hit dice for vampires with class level. Right now if I had a 14th level M-U vampire, I think I would roll for M-U hp (9d4 + 5 + possible CON bonus) and for vampire hp (8d8 +3) and use whichever is higher. Same for "to hit" and saving throws, use whichever is more favorable.

I'd just stick to HD, no bonuses for con or level. They are undead after all, so Con doesn't seem like it would apply. And it seems like HD would have been addressed in the monster description. I guess it just seems these are monsters and are lucky to get abilities they had when they were alive. If you want to make it a tuffer enemy maybe give it a powerful henchman (to guard its lair) or a new vampire it made.

See the thing is, I don't see why a high level character (pc or npc) would lose hit points and attack capability by becoming a superbad vampire. Same with saving throws and so on. The MM text implies that even newly created vampires can have standard classes (it mentions thieves and clerics), so if they can have their spells and their thieving abilities (vampire with backstab) they should, imo, keep their character class hit dice, saving throw, etc. if it benefits them. Now if they are less powerful, say a first, third, or even seventh level character, they should get the vampiric 8+3 HD and special saves because those go with the vampire powers and are the same that any unwashed peasant would get if they became a vampire.

By the way, how about liches. We know they have to have mastered the 18th level of magic use (9d4+9 or more hit points), but have 11+ hit dice. I was trying to make up a m-u level to lich hit die conversion but haven't got very far. I remember there was a lich in one of the 'D' modules, I need to look that up.