Knights & Knaves Alehouse

A couple of ideas:

(a) The devil description notes that the summoning of fellow devils is much like a monster summoning spell, so you could have them sent back to Hell after a few rounds.

(b) The gate spell description mentions that the name of a creature is necessary in casting. Perhaps this holds true for a devil's summoning and he is limited by the number of acquaintances he has (and perhaps devils are not particularly social in that regard).

I like the idea that demons and devils can only gate in fellows that "owe them", but I imagine it would be tricky to quantify.

Here's my interpretation of BTB demonic/lower planar gating:

• gate is usually listed in the sections of at-will-abilities that are usable once per day, although it is not stated as such explicitly in the same way that other once per day abilities are stated, in most cases: see Demogorgon's ability to use power word stun vs. gate or project an image---neither of which have once per day stated for them---or Orcus' ability to timestop 1/day vs. shape change or polymorph any object or (again) gate. Yeenoghu, however, explicitly states gate as "once/day, 80% change for from 2-5 [type I demons]".
• Note that Orcus, Baphomet, Lolth, and Asmodeus (as well as the other arch-devils) also have the ability to summon creatures, which is not defined vs. gate, beyond the comment that "Devils are able to summon their fellows, summoning being similar to a monster summoning spell"---note that it's not the same as a Monster Summoning N spell, though, just "similar"
• No arch-devils use gate, btw---only lesser devils (including pit fiends) do: arch-devils only summon other demons rather than gating them in.
• Note the comment on Type VI demons' at-will abilities: "Each of these terrible abilities [including gate] can be employed as often as desired, but only one may be used at any given time" (MM page 19)
• Night hags: "If hard pressed, can attempt to gate in a demon of type I or a barbed devil (50%/50%). The is a 50% chance of the gate opening. The 'hag dislikes doing this, as she must reward the demon or devil with a larva." This passage seems to me to be the basis for comments that creatures from the lower planes are loath to call upon one another for aid.
• Baphomet can gate in a Type III demon (85% chance of success) once per day (MM2; vs. S4 = "Once per day he can (85%) gate in a type III demon."
• Graz'zt can "gate in 1-2 Type VI demons (60%) or 2-5 babau demons (40%) without fail" (MM2; vs. S4 = "He can gate in 1-2 type VI demons without fail.")

Based on the above details, I see two possible BTB rulings that remain strong and viable interpretations to me, using the MM only: a) gate may only be successful once per day, but may be attempted multiple times until it is successful, b) gate may only be attempted once per day, and whether successful or unsuccessful, gate cannot be attempted again until 24 hours have passed (or however long a day is in your campaign worlds). Using the MM2 and the module S4, it seems clear to me that b) is the better interpretation; YMMV, of course

FWIW, demonic gate vs. devilish summon always struck me as a key difference between the two abilities and creatures: devils obey orders and come when called, while demons are so unreliable and the Abyss (and demons) so chaotic that they may not even hear/notice the gate in the first place, or are as likely to choose to ignore the call even if it does come through OK. Demons that can summon creatures are usually able to do so as part of a "portfolio"---Orcus as Prince of Undead can summon various undead, ditto for minotaurs with Baphomet, spiders for Lolth, etc.

Now, here's how I use the gate at-will-ability in my games:

• To date, I have employed interpretation b) above: gate may only be attempted once per day (whether successful or not) by most demons, including Princes, unless stated otherwise
• gate is an at-will-ability, and like any other at-will-ability is usable in addition to a full attack routine; it cannot be interrupted by being struck in melee (although silence or other magical effects like an anti-magic shell may negate it)
• Gated-in creates are real, standard creatures, and as such can also use their abilities to gate in others based on their own gate abilities; there is a real possibility of a cascade (a term I stole from Sepulchrave's ENWorld story hour, which is exceptional and is highly-recommended reading for any DM using demons in his 1e campaign)---that is, that a series of gates are opened which rapidly deploy hundreds or thousands of demons to the Prime (in Sep's campaign, cascade is a holy/celestial term, and I haven't found an equivalent for en masse demonic deployments to the Prime: some darker term is certainly in order )

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

grodog wrote:gate is usually listed in the sections of at-will-abilities that are usable once per day,

Based on a look through the MM, I think your form appears only in the cases of Demogorgon, Juiblex, and Orcus.

I do not think that comes anywhere near "usually"!

MM DEMONS GATING (apart from Demogorgon, Juiblex, Orcus)

"at will" or "as desired": succubus, type V

"one at a time, at will" or "any one of which can be performed at will" or "as often as desired, but only one may be used at any given time": type I, type II, type III, type VI

"one per melee round": type IV, Yeenoghu**

** "...and if he is alone, he can summon from 6-66 [gnolls] in one turn. ...he can similarly summon from 6-16 ghouls if he so desires."


MM DEVILS SUMMONING

"can always summon": Asmodeus, Baalzebul

"one at a time, per turn or melee round, as applicable" or "at will, once per turn or melee round, as applicable" or "at will, one at a time per turn or melee round [or vice-versa], as applicable": barbed, bone, Dispater, Geryon, horned, ice, pit fiend

"during any turn or melee round, as applicable": erinyes

Dwayanu wrote:

grodog wrote:gate is usually listed in the sections of at-will-abilities that are usable once per day,

Based on a look through the MM, I think your form appears only in the cases of Demogorgon, Juiblex, and Orcus.

I do not think that comes anywhere near "usually"!

Good point, Dwayanu---I didn't go back to reread all of the demon entries (obviously :D ). I'm basically extrapolating back from the demon princes to the lower-rank demons: if the greatest demon lords can only gate once per day (which again, isn't as a cut and dry reading either in the MM, although Lolth does support the once/day reading as well---"once per day gate in a type I (45%), type II (35%) or type III (20%) demon (with 66% chance of success)" [D3]---and she's the demon lord most likely to be engaged by PCs in play, given her presence as an encounter in D3 and Q1), I apply the same rationale to the lower-level demons too. That's clearly not BTB when reading the Type VI demon entry or some of the others, even though (to me) it makes logical sense, and answers the Q of why demons, devils, and other gaters haven't overrun all of the planes.

Now, back to BTB: since it seems that there isn't a definitive level of BTB guidance in the immediate MM or DMG (I just rechecked there), are there other sources to consider that help to define the working of the gate ability itself? Here are two other sources that mention/imply limitations on gate abilities for gods:

• Gate: the deity can only attempt to gate in other beings of the same mythos (D&DG page 8)
• In the Standard Divine Abilities from the 1983 Greyhawk boxed set, gods are allowed to use gate a limited number of times per day, based on their rank: Greater gods 3/day, Lesser gods 2/day, Demigods 1/day (Greyhawk Glossography pages 37-38)
• NOTE: The following beings from the MONSTER MANUAL and FIEND FOLIO should be treated as lesser gods, though they very rarely have human worshipers: MONSTER MANUAL: Demon: Demogorgon, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu (D&DG page 105)

Based on the above, it seems that lesser gods (in Greyhawk) are limited to gate twice per day as a standard divine ability, and that (from D&DG) demon princes, et al, are treated as lesser gods, therefore their usage in the number of gates per day should be limited too.

None of this, however, offers any real guidance to answer the questions "Does gate represent the number of successful gate attempts allowable per day?" vs. "Is gate the number of attempts per day permitted, regardless of the success of the attempt?".

More thoughts? :D

I have been reading up on slaad. Green slaad can attempt to gate once per hour. I realize that this is the FF, not the MM, but it does help define the power for slaad and could be extrapolated to demons and devils. i.e. perhaps only one gate can open in the locale per hour, so the gated-in creature is perfectly free to gate in another fellow, but need only wait an hour (and combat is hopefully over by then).

Now this could also be consequential for characters who let the monster get away. If they face it again next week, it may have decided to gate in a few cronies.

But seriously, I see Lower Planes monsters as egotistical, and I can't even see devils as being much of team players. The monster might not want to share the bounty of a rampage on the material plane, or may only summon a single subordinate to use and control.

For me, the logic of gateing in help is that the summoner has to pay the summonee. Probably in both treasure and souls. So IMC the bigger demons and devils will only use it in extremis, and may prefer to lose their material form.

Looking at the chasme, description, it indicates they only do so when they feel they are in real trouble, they wouldn't gate in the first round of combat unless they were clearly outclassed (but in that case, they would probably teleport the heck away).

I also play it that any demon or devil who gates in help loses considerable face and probably incurs some sort of debt to the gatee, which, especially for devils, would be a strong disincentive against doing so except as a desperate last resort.

Ok, point made HOWEVER since it is not a PC that loses face and suffers, who cares really??? If I was playing in a group and this event occurred, I would cheer it on. It has no impact on the players whatsoever. Unless you intend on making the pit fiend weaker or give it a reason not to harass the players anymore.

This. The price a creature from the lower planes would have to pay would be a huge deterrant. When dealing with the pure evil of Hell or the Abyss the last thing you want to do is show weakness.

Ok, point made but again, how does this affect the players??? Why would a player care if a demon/devil loses face when they use their gate ability???

My only concern in any of these events is to try and kill these fiends as soon as possible so no more can be gated lest they overrun the party....LOL

The big question is whether the pit fiend has 254 barbed devils at its disposal. It will just take longer to reach that limit if it has to do all the work of bringing them in 2 at a time by itself while its subordinates take a long tea break.

if you have chance to read the Articles of Hell in Dragon magazine, you will see that some Pit Fiends in service to archdevils command legions of devils in their armies so yes, they would have 254 or maybe 254,000 of them at their disposal.

I once had similar questions with regard to this topic several years ago, but hadn't really thought about it since as it never really came up in any of my games. Having now gone back and read all of the relevant information I think I now understand how this works, how demons and devils can gate or summon while retaining a simple, logical explanation for why the prime material plane has not been overrun by these extra-planer beings.

The sources I used were Greyhawk (first appearnace of the gate spell), Eldritch Wizardry (first appearnace of demons, including description of their gate ability), the Monster Manual entries for all demons and devils (devils did not appear in the preceeding OD&D rules, and furthermore they do NOT have the ability to gate), and the PHB description of the gate spell.

The demons' ability to gate in others functions exactly as the gate spell, with the exception that the spell version has a 100% chance of bringing something through while the innate demon ability has a less than 100% chance of success*.

The description of the gate spell on page 28 of Greyhawk says:

Gate: Employment of this spell opens a cosmic portal and allows an ultra-powerful being (such as Odin, Crom, Set, Cthulhu, the Shining One, a demi-god, or whatever) to come to this plane. It is recommended that the user of this spell have a highly valid reason for summoning such aid. The name of the being desired must be called when the spell is cast. There is a 95% chance that the called being will come, 5% chance for some other being coming instead. There is also a 5% chance that whatever shows up will imply return immediately after observing the situation.

This description differs slightly from the PHB version, which goes into more detail about the possible uncooperative nature of the being gated in.

PHB, page 53:

. . . When casting the spell, the cleric must name the demon, devil, demi-god, god, or similar being he or she desires to make use of the gate and come to the cleric’s aid. There is a 100% certainty that something will step through the gate. The actions of the being which comes through will depend on many factors, including the alignment of the cleric, the nature of those in company with him or here, and who or what opposes or threatens the cleric. . . .

The relevant factors here are 1) a specific being must be called forth by name, 2) there must be good reason for the gating, and 3) the being gated in is not automatically under the control of the one who opened the gate and it has the option/ability to simply return to its original plane without taking any action at all.

The description of demons on page 29 of Eldritch Wizardry says:

Demons are chaotic and evil; the smarter and stronger rule those of their kind who are weaker and less intelligent.

[snip]

Demons will never willingly serve anyone or anything. If forced to serve through magic or threat they will continually seek a way to slay their master/captor.

I would take this to mean that a demon gating in another demon takes a pretty big risk. Demons are chaotic and do not necessarily cooperate with each other to further any particular evil ends, so a newly gated demon is just as likely to cause harm to the original demon as it would to the PCs (or whoever the demon's enemy is at the time). Should a demon be so unfortunate as to gate in another demon stronger/smarter than itself, then the stronger demon will certainly attempt to subjugate the original demon into being the servitor.

* As for the less than 100% chance of success for the demon gate ability, I view this as a combination of various factors, including the unavailability of the specific demon called or the called demon immediately returning without taking action.

As stated before, devils do not have the ability to gate*. Instead they do have the ability to summon other devils in a fashion similar to a monster summoning spell.

What does "similar to" mean? In what ways is this ability the same as the spell and in what ways is it different? The differences are obvious: monster summoning spells will bring forth a random monster type of a level dependant upon the spell level used, while the devil ability brings forth a specific type of devil. Also, the spell always works while the devil ability usually has a less than 100% chance to succeed.

They should be treated the same with regard to duration (necessary to keep a single devil on the prime from eventually bringing forth the entire legion of hell to earth) and the summoner's ability to control the summoned being (unlike demons, devils are lawful and will cooperate with each other).

* Technically, the descriptions of the ice devil and pit fiend mention the ability to gate. I believe this to be a typo and the word summon should have been used instead.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:For me, the logic of gateing in help is that the summoner has to pay the summonee. Probably in both treasure and souls. So IMC the bigger demons and devils will only use it in extremis, and may prefer to lose their material form.

This is how I think of it as well. But here is the thing: if a demon or devil is magically bound to defend a post (protecting an important temple, treasure horde of some powerful evil cleric or wizard or perhaps bound to some more powerful demon or devils bidding etc. ) would such a binding require he use all his power (including gating) or is he obligated to use only the power he himself has? To my mind the demon or devil would likely gate unless their was some sort of contract in advance. Also, does charm monster work on demons or devils?

Another way to do this, although not BTB, is to adjust the monster's description to only allow gating in of lesser creatures. Thus an arch-devil could gate in a pit fiend or any lesser monster. A pit fiend can gate in barbed devils (as usual). Ice devils could gate in bone devils (I think they usually can anyway). Bone and barbed devils could gate in imps. Same for demons, type iii could gate in a type i or ii. Type i could gate in quasit only, etc. This way, even if the monster gated in a new combatant the power creep is a downward spiral and contained.

That would destroy the fun flavor of succubi being able to gate in demon princes (unless you specifically made them an exception).