Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Dwayanu wrote:Whether magic spells are interrupted tends to be the big issue, and the 1st ed. AD&D books plus all the contradictory things "Gary said" leave it a potentially contentious one. Just have a clear rule, whatever it is, and players can get on with using it to assess tactics.

I don't think this had come up yet in this thread, although there was some dicussion on the area of effect of spells. A bit off topic then, but...

All you really need is to decide:

(a) When does casting begin?
(b) When do attacks occur?

I ignore the DMG with regard to weapon speed factors having a role in this situation, as I find that rule cumbersome to implement and not altogether satisfying anyways.

So when your magic missile hits, since it always does, and you are targeting an element of a melee cloud, who gets hit? I think this thread has plane shifted to Limbo or Tarterus perhaps... not familiar with the physics there...

Ragnorakk wrote:So when your magic missile hits, since it always does, and you are targeting an element of a melee cloud, who gets hit? I think this thread has plane shifted to Limbo or Tarterus perhaps... not familiar with the physics there...

Why do you assume that it must hit something, but not necessarily the intended target? Maybe one factor contributing to its never missing is that it is effectively instantaneous, so that what you see when you aim is what you get when it hits.

That this is not necessarily so with an arrow is a key factor in the potential for it to miss the intended target, and thus to hit another.

The magic missile might "lock onto and seek" its target. It might not really be a missile at all, might not really cross the intervening space at all.

If you assume that it functions like an arrow, then treat it like an arrow! That, it appears to me, was the intent when it was introduced in D&D Supplement I. "This is a conjured missile equivalent to a magic arrow, and it does full damage (2-7 points) to any creature it strikes."

The version that "unerringly strikes" contradicts the missile-equivalence. You're arbitrarily confusing A with Anti-A, which is why you get a seeming 'paradox'.

Ragnorakk wrote:So when your magic missile hits, since it always does, and you are targeting an element of a melee cloud, who gets hit? I think this thread has plane shifted to Limbo or Tarterus perhaps... not familiar with the physics there...

Nah, magic missiles always hit the intended target. Fireballs, however, were a point of debate. Normal missile fire isn't like a spell in that regard.

Gotcha. I guess I was a bit baffled when the analogy began to be applied to situations other than the press of melee, where it makes sense to me.

Random wrote:

Stormcrow wrote:It does not deal with such movement. The particular situation you describe can be handled by a withdrawal maneuver, especially if the doorway is more than 1" distant. Whether a character can take advantage of a tactical terrain feature already within melee range depends on the ruling of the DM; the DMG is silent on this.

Consider this: Three orcs are trying to, rather than slay a fighter outright, press him back until he either topples over a nearby cliff, or has to give them an advantage due to his restricted movement.

Would it be best to rule that the fighter can always easily stand his ground unless his player chooses to withdraw? Then again, orcs aren't exactly weaklings and they do outnumber him.

[In game terms: The orcs want to move the entire melee some short distance over the course of the round. The fighter wants the fighting to stay right where it is. If the DMG doesn't cover this, how would you rule?]

(I see that Axe gave an example, but it's different as it doesn't involve a compulsory movement; i.e., one group pushing another group.)

This is a good question, and really gets to one of the defining elements of 1E: having a DM that knows how to be fare and use his good judgement.

Things that DM might consider (besides conditions)

-The physical size of the guy they orcs are trying to move backwards (is it a 70 pound weakling elf)
-the level of the PC (is this a 15th level fighter 3 orcs are trying to push foward or a 1st level guy on his first real adventure),
-the size and HD of the monster (if this were three ogers rather then three orcs it might be easier for them to push forward and more difficult for the fighter to hold his ground).
-The problem of flanking (does the PC have to go backward to avoid being surrounded, he might choose to be surrounded if the alternative is being knocked over a cliff).

(Note: what you described is more like a combination of pushing foward at the same time as swinging a weapon. If the monsters want to drop their weapons and attack hand to hand you could go to the unarmed table or create something of your own on the spot).

Really the player BTB can only count on knowning a few things will be handeld consistantly by the DM: The to hit tables (PC and monster), the save tables (though they won't always know which save table they are being asked to role on), spells and weapons damage and armor protection. Matters of exact movement and encumbrance are often delt with with "common sense" though the DM can choose to go btb. Then there are things like, climbing a rope, jumping a wide crack, or trying to push someone over a cliff. As a game 1E ROCKS because every situation can be easily adjudicated in seconds by a fare DM (its very fluid without a break in the action), and without that player knowing in advance his exact chances (and lets face it, how often do you get to practise pushing an orc over a cliff in the middle of heated battle...though I'm sure 3E has a special feat for it) .

AxeMental wrote:Really the player BTB can only count on knowning a few things will be handeld consistantly by the DM: The to hit tables (PC and monster), the save tables (though they won't always know which save table they are being asked to role on), spells and weapons damage and armor protection. Matters of exact movement and encumbrance are often delt with with "common sense" though the DM can choose to go btb. Then there are things like, climbing a rope, jumping a wide crack, or trying to push someone over a cliff. As a game 1E ROCKS because every situation can be easily adjudicated in seconds by a fare DM (its very fluid without a break in the action), and without that player knowing in advance his exact chances (and lets face it, how often do you get to practise pushing an orc over a cliff in the middle of heated battle...though I'm sure 3E has a special feat for it) .

I knew there had to be a reason I like this game!
I just need to take off my "tedious hat" and put on my "whatever-makes-sense hat" with regard to this particular topic.

Very true, though it is still worth knowing what little the book has to say!

Ragnorakk wrote:So when your magic missile hits, since it always does, and you are targeting an element of a melee cloud, who gets hit?

The person targetted as long as they can be seen, remember they are just moving about at normal speed, the caster can watch them, and like a guided missle the MM will hit. If that target jumps behind a wall or into a darkness spell, that would be a problem.

By comparison, if a fighter fires an arrow at a group, the arrow could hit anyone because people are moving so quickly and unpredictably (as I understand the rules). However, the magic missile is able to avoid people that might step in the way of the intended target and still hit its mark (even if the target moves at the last second). MM is fail safe.