Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Page 41 of the DMG has monster zombie (and monster skeleton) rules, so why the MM2 entry? Did they just not go back and read that part? Anyway, just wondering how you all treat clerical turning vs skeletons and zombies of large hit dice. I seem to remember TOEE statblocks with this in there somewhere. I am divided about using a similar hit dice undead monster (for example 6+3 HD mummy for a 7 HD troll zombie) or treating the higher hit dice monster as multiple lower hit dice creatures (a 4 HD ogre skeleton could be turned if you would have succeeded in turning 4 one hit die normal skeletons).

I have long been of the opinion, perhaps mistakenly, that the Monster Manual II was, like Unearthed Arcana, part of a prototype Gygaxian 2e and so it experiments a bit with its content and presentation. Stuff, like the monster zombie is included because, in Gygax's revision of AD&D, those rules in the DMG would have been shifted to other places, like the PHB and the MM, to make them more accessible and usable. I remember at the time MM II was released wondering why that entry was there, but I also recall that most DMs I knew hadn't read the DMG very thoroughly and were utterly unaware of that little rule tucked away in it.

darnizhaan wrote: . . . treating the higher hit dice monster as multiple lower hit dice creatures (a 4 HD ogre skeleton could be turned if you would have succeeded in turning 4 one hit die normal skeletons).

I really like this. And not only for skeletons & zombies with extra hit dice but also as a way to introduce new undead types into the turning chart that seem to fit between two other entries. Consider this stolen!

James Maliszewski wrote: . . . but I also recall that most DMs I knew hadn't read the DMG very thoroughly and were utterly unaware of that little rule tucked away in it.

I have read the DMG pretty thoroughly mulitple times and even then I don't remember ever reading this rule.

darnizhaan wrote:Page 41 of the DMG has monster zombie (and monster skeleton) rules, so why the MM2 entry? Did they just not go back and read that part? Anyway, just wondering how you all treat clerical turning vs skeletons and zombies of large hit dice. I seem to remember TOEE statblocks with this in there somewhere. I am divided about using a similar hit dice undead monster (for example 6+3 HD mummy for a 7 HD troll zombie) or treating the higher hit dice monster as multiple lower hit dice creatures (a 4 HD ogre skeleton could be turned if you would have succeeded in turning 4 one hit die normal skeletons).

Nice catch. I guess since it wasn't part of the zombie description in the original MM it wasn't considered a real choice. I actually don't even remember that and will have to go look it up when I'm near my DMG.

darnizhaan wrote:Anyway, just wondering how you all treat clerical turning vs skeletons and zombies of large hit dice.

Well, the MMII entry for monster zombies state they turn as ghasts. The MMII specifically puts the HD for the monster zombie at 6, and starting the count with skeletons, the ghast is #6 on the list.

So my first thought is to count up the total hit die and turn the creature at that entry on the turn chart, which would handle up to 13HD. I might be inclined to cap giant skeletons and zombies at 10HD for turning purposes (which would be equiv to a vampire), because, well, they're just skeletons and zombies.

But again, we're into second-guessing and rationalizing based on what we have, so who knows?

I remember getting one upped by a real jerk about this when the MMII came out. Remember when I said that I had an archenemy dungeon master named Kevin? That was what he sticklered me on with a real setup: "What do you think of the monster zombie?" or something like that then proceeded to cite that bit from the SPELL EXPLANATIONS. Thanks, for bringing that up! You bastids!!!

Seriously, this furthered with the wolfweres being originally in the MONSTER MANUAL as "wolweres". I still prefer the "wolwere" to the wolfwere elaborated version. I told Gary that when I was bitching about bards ruining the game.

Yeah the wolweres cohabitated with werewolves, while wolfweres are mortal enemies, wtf?