Knights & Knaves Alehouse

There are three ways I've seen backstab handled in 1E (all assume the thief is completely undetected from behind and in range, from MS or HIS). Curious which way you think is correct or if you use another method (based on your btb reading).

A thief that is completely undetected (MS or HIS), in range and behind the victim can attempt a back stab but must:
1. role thief's surprise 1-3, if he surprises his first attack is back stab (double damage) any other segments are normal (no bonus to hit or damage), if he failed to surprise role normal initiative and he has lost his attempt,
2 . does not have to role surprise it is automatic, after back stab attempt role surprise (1-3),

3. automatic back stab, then role normal initiative.
A 4th way, no surprise to attempt backstab (just move into position undetected with MS or HIS) and then back stab, followed by 1-2 surprise.

I remember asking Gygax what he intended, and at the time he claimed it was if you make your MS or HIS you don't have to role a seperate surprise, the BS is automatically attempted, and then normal initiative is rolled (method 3).

#3 is how I do it.

I use #3 as well. The odd thing is this, the thief then looses his chance at up to three seperate attacks if he'd not attempted to back stab. Assuming the thief hit 3 times with his sword he might do more damage then if he hit with his sword in a backstab x2.

I handle these attacks on a case by case basis. Generally, in combat, if you manage to get behind somebody undetected somehow, no surprise roll is required. If you're trying to sneak up on a guard or something like that, then situations would dictate procedure, but the MS or HiS roll would replace the surprise roll in most situations.

Case by case...the key word being undetected to the opponent's rear, as Scotty says. There are a variety of ways that could happen.

In circumstances when the opponent's attention is generally diverted (especially during combat), the MS or HiS roll is all that would be required. However, if the thief is sneaking up on a sentry, and there is a logical chance that the sentry might happen to look in the thief's direction (silent movement or no), I require a surprise roll too. I let thieves surprise 3 in 6 as a general rule, 4 in 6 if they made a MS roll.

Note that I allow fighters to 'backstab' for double damage, too, should they manage to maneuver undetected behind an opponent, which will be considerably harder for a fighter type. I despise the thief-as-ninja, and I see no good reason a thief should be physically better at killing from behind - he just has a much easier time getting there.

I tend to use #4 unless there are special circumstances.

Usually #1, but I often adjust surprise chances to take into account other factors. There are also other situations in which a back stab would be applicable.

I also do not require a surprise roll if the MS/HIS is successful - method 3.

I can see the BtB support for method 1, but that reduces the liklihood of ever successfully using the attack even further. I think it's hard enough with a successful MS/HIS. For most low to mid level thieves with race/dex bonuses, that's hitting two 50/50 rolls in a row. Adding a third 50/50 (or 66/34) roll for surprise is just too much. I like my players' thieves getting an occasional backstab. It's iconic to the class. Failure puts them in such a bad combat position that a smart player shouldn't try under method 1.

Eye of the Beholder wrote: I also do not require a surprise roll if the MS/HIS is successful - method 3.

I can see the BtB support for method 1, but that reduces the liklihood of ever successfully using the attack even further. I think it's hard enough with a successful MS/HIS. For most low to mid level thieves with race/dex bonuses, that's hitting two 50/50 rolls in a row. Adding a third 50/50 (or 66/34) roll for surprise is just too much. I like my players' thieves getting an occasional backstab. It's iconic to the class. Failure puts them in such a bad combat position that a smart player shouldn't try under method 1.

Actually, it can be more probable, depending on level, because you do not need to make both rolls. The point is that the former may modify the latter, and it definitely is the "by the book" method (for whatever that is worth). Basically, at levels 1-4 the thief has a 1-in-3 chance of surprise, but sometimes a 1-in-2 chance. Once move silently starts significantly exceeding the base probability, of course, then it becomes less favourable.

Becomes a 1-in2? Doesn't someone who is both hidden and silent have a 4-in-6 chance of surprise, same as someone invisible? I'm going to have to start keeping a PHB at work for these conversations

Why do you not need to make both rolls? I can see that, but only on a very situational basis.

Eye of the Beholder wrote: Becomes a 1-in-2? Doesn't someone who is both hidden and silent have a 4-in-6 chance of surprise, same as someone invisible? I'm going to have to start keeping a PHB at work for these conversations

Why do you not need to make both rolls? I can see that, but only on a very situational basis.

Heh, heh. Well, up to you how you modify the surprise roll to account for "silence", the PHB example is 4-in-6 for an invisible and silent party, but certainly elves have a 4-in-6 chance and they are not invisible. The move silently roll modifies the surprise roll:

PHB, p. 28 wrote: Moving Silently can be attempted each time the thief moves. It can be used to approach an area where some creature is expected, thus increasing chances for surprise (q.v.). or to approach to back stab, or simply done to pass some guard or watchman. Failure (a dice score in excess of the adjusted base chance) means that movement was not silent (see SURPRISE). Success means movement was silent.

So, say you have a first level thief. He moves towards an area using "move silently" (15%). If he succeeds then the surprise die is modified (likely 2-in-6 becomes 3-in-6, but nothing is definite about that), if not the surprise die is as normal (2-in-6). Either way, both rolls do not need to be successful for surprise to be achieved.

I have always used method #3... and I think that the BTB interpretation supports this.

From the PHB description:

Back stabbing is the striking of a blow from behind, be it with club, dagger, or sword... Note that striking by surprise from behind also increases the hit probability by 20% (+4 on the thief's "to hit" die roll).

So any attack from behind causes the back-stab damage if a hit is successful (regardless of conditions); additionally, the thief gets a +4 to hit if he achieved surprise! The thing to note here though, is that there is no mention of the other thieving abilities, or that lack of surprise negates the back-stab ability.

Now looking in the DMG:

Back Stabbing: Opponents aware of the thief will be able to negate the attack form. Certain creatures (otyughs, slimes, molds, etc.) either negate surprise or have no definable "back", thus negating this ability.

Again, there's no mention of using the other thieving abilities or of surprise affecting the back-stab ability. However, it seems to imply that the thief must be (a) behind the opponent, (b) must have successfully made the opponent unaware of his/her presence (i.e. hidden, moved silently, or surprised the opponent), and (c) is not attacking a "backless" opponent.

I would say then that the "official by-the-book" rule would be:
1. The thief is not attacking a "backless" opponent
2. The opponent is unaware of the thief by means of one of the following:
a. The thief has successfully hidden in shadows behind the opponent
b. The thief has successfully moved silently behind the opponent
c. The thief has surprised the opponent from behind (and gains a +4 to
hit for the back-stab attack)

If the above conditions are met, then the thief rolls to hit normally (+4 if he/she has surprise) and applies the increased damage. This is definitely the thief's most powerful ability... next to reading magical scrolls of course!

Yep... if the thief gets behind the target un-noticed, then he gets the damage multiplier.

If he ALSO gets Surprise, then he gets the +4 OR the extra (normal damage) attacks as per the rules for Surprise.

BlackBat242 wrote: Yep... if the thief gets behind the target un-noticed, then he gets the damage multiplier.

If he ALSO gets Surprise, then he gets the +4 OR the extra (normal damage) attacks as per the rules for Surprise.

Although the PHB indicates that this is the case (and reinforces it with its combat example, though there the thief hides in shadows and then uses the silence spell to move behind the illusionist undetected), the DMG takes a slightly contrary position:

DMG, p. 19 wrote: Back Stabbing: Opponents aware of the thief will be able to negate the attack form. Certain creatures (otyughs, slimes, molds, etc.) either negate surprise or have no definable "back", thus negating this ability.

If creatures that negate surprise negate this ability then the conclusion would be that back stab requires surprise. Personally, I believe it was intended to be applied more broadly than that, and the idea is that creatures that cannot be surprised are always aware of potential attackers.

Matthew wrote:

Eye of the Beholder wrote: Becomes a 1-in-2? Doesn't someone who is both hidden and silent have a 4-in-6 chance of surprise, same as someone invisible? I'm going to have to start keeping a PHB at work for these conversations

Why do you not need to make both rolls? I can see that, but only on a very situational basis.

Heh, heh. Well, up to you how you modify the surprise roll to account for "silence", the PHB example is 4-in-6 for an invisible and silent party, but certainly elves have a 4-in-6 chance and they are not invisible. The move silently roll modifies the surprise roll:

PHB, p. 28 wrote: Moving Silently can be attempted each time the thief moves. It can be used to approach an area where some creature is expected, thus increasing chances for surprise (q.v.). or to approach to back stab, or simply done to pass some guard or watchman. Failure (a dice score in excess of the adjusted base chance) means that movement was not silent (see SURPRISE). Success means movement was silent.

So, say you have a first level thief. He moves towards an area using "move silently" (15%). If he succeeds then the surprise die is modified (likely 2-in-6 becomes 3-in-6, but nothing is definite about that), if not the surprise die is as normal (2-in-6). Either way, both rolls do not need to be successful for surprise to be achieved.

I believe this is a correct reading of how MS works. The only thing I would add to what Matt says is that if the MS works and surprise is won, the attack may be from behind the victim (in which case no dex or shield modifiers apply and the first attack would be at +2).

A direct reading of the p28 quote suggests if a thief succeeds in MS and is in range of a backstab, he may choose, at that moment, to do one of 3 seperate things: 1. backstab (+4 to hit double damage) 1 single attack, 2. attempt to surprise for 1-3 segments, or 3. not engage (move past a guard, or just stay put.). It is unclear if after the backstab normal surprise could be attempted. The nature of a backstab seems like it would require alot of concentration, so I could see how that would nullify a possible surprise afterwards.