Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Frank the fighter has 35 hit points and Oliver the ogre has 23 hit points.
Frank is capable of dealing out a maximum of 12 points of damage/round once strength and magic bonuses are considered. The ogre is average and can deal a maximum of 10 points of damage/round.

Really, until the ogre's hit points drop to 12 or less or the fighter's hit points are reduced to 10 or less, initiative isn't important at all assuming no other tactical options are available (or thought of).

Just a random thought . . .

True enough.

At first level, it's often make-or-break, though.

Yeah, and sometimes players just love to roll for initiative and get all excited about the result, even if it doesn't really make a difference.

One-on-one combat is rarely the case, though. More likely the players are looking to concentrate their attacks on one foe to bring him down before he strikes back, and there initiative pays, though obviously with random melee targeting this is less likely.

For me, it’s one of those things where fun outweighs any concern of sense or balance. The drama of “We HAVE to win this initiative roll or we’re toast!” is one of my most favorite parts of combat. Plus, losing initiative often means having your spells interrupted, and other major tactical disadvantages.

Example assumes they both never miss?

I don't get it.

Lord Cias wrote:Frank the fighter has 35 hit points and Oliver the ogre has 23 hit points.
Frank is capable of dealing out a maximum of 12 points of damage/round once strength and magic bonuses are considered. The ogre is average and can deal a maximum of 10 points of damage/round.

Really, until the ogre's hit points drop to 12 or less or the fighter's hit points are reduced to 10 or less, initiative isn't important at all assuming no other tactical options are available (or thought of).

Just a random thought . . .

I don't know Cias. All things being equal maybe, but how often does that happen in 1E? Usually its a group (so you have spells that could be critical to get off first), and theres magic items that can come in handy. Never mind creative players getting into advantageous positions, and monsters having time to call for help. You can't forget the pain in the ass of having to waste a heal spell because of a bad role (which can put the breaks on pushing forward giving time to those ahead to prepare for the groups return, think B2). And what if your dealing with a monster with death poison?

I think of winning initiative as critical more often then not.

As far as a game element, I agree totally with Falc. Initiative makes the player feel he's really there dealing with imagined combat situations, as its not a mechanical back and forth (a serious flaw with the 3E system).

Matthew wrote:One-on-one combat is rarely the case, though. More likely the players are looking to concentrate their attacks on one foe to bring him down before he strikes back, and there initiative pays, though obviously with random melee targeting this is less likely.

AxeMental wrote: I don't know Cias. All things being equal maybe, but how often does that happen in 1E? Usually its a group (so you have spells that could be critical to get off first), and theres magic items that can come in handy. Never mind creative players getting into advantageous positions, and monsters having time to call for help. You can't forget the pain in the ass of having to waste a heal spell because of a bad role (which can put the breaks on pushing forward giving time to those ahead to prepare for the groups return, think B2). And what if your dealing with a monster with death poison?

I know, I know. I'm just say'n, in the absence of all the tactical options and what not.

I didn't really have a big point, it was just a thought. If I had to make a point of it though, I guess it would be that we should keep this in mind the next time we discuss the complexities of the initiative system: initiative only has a practical purpose if the combatants are attempting tactical maneuvers that have different effects depending on whether they come before or after a side's melee attacks or in cases where a single hit could kill a combatant before it has a chance to act. Might help to put things in perspective. Maybe . . .

Lord Cias wrote: I know, I know. I'm just say'n, in the absence of all the tactical options and what not.

I didn't really have a big point, it was just a thought. If I had to make a point of it though, I guess it would be that we should keep this in mind the next time we discuss the complexities of the initiative system: initiative only has a practical purpose if the combatants are attempting tactical maneuvers that have different effects depending on whether they come before or after a side's melee attacks or in cases where a single hit could kill a combatant before it has a chance to act. Might help to put things in perspective. Maybe . . .

It may well be that the "significant one-on-one combats" alluded to in the PHB and seemingly referenced in the DMG as "list combat" use weapon speeds and dexterity to determine initiative order precisely because of this [i.e. when the number of random elements is very low].

Lord Cias wrote:

Matthew wrote:One-on-one combat is rarely the case, though. More likely the players are looking to concentrate their attacks on one foe to bring him down before he strikes back, and there initiative pays, though obviously with random melee targeting this is less likely.

AxeMental wrote: I don't know Cias. All things being equal maybe, but how often does that happen in 1E? Usually its a group (so you have spells that could be critical to get off first), and theres magic items that can come in handy. Never mind creative players getting into advantageous positions, and monsters having time to call for help. You can't forget the pain in the ass of having to waste a heal spell because of a bad role (which can put the breaks on pushing forward giving time to those ahead to prepare for the groups return, think B2). And what if your dealing with a monster with death poison?

I know, I know. I'm just say'n, in the absence of all the tactical options and what not.

I didn't really have a big point, it was just a thought. If I had to make a point of it though, I guess it would be that we should keep this in mind the next time we discuss the complexities of the initiative system: initiative only has a practical purpose if the combatants are attempting tactical maneuvers that have different effects depending on whether they come before or after a side's melee attacks or in cases where a single hit could kill a combatant before it has a chance to act. Might help to put things in perspective. Maybe . . .

Thats true. I guess as DM I pay close attention to initiative when it really matters (a spell being cast, if I'm using WSF, if there is an obvious tactical importance (lighting a warning fire, throwing a poisoned spear etc.) There's also a def. break between 1E and 0E here (if I remember correctly, spell casting time isn't a factor in 0E but is in 1E).

Lord Cias wrote:Frank the fighter has 35 hit points and Oliver the ogre has 23 hit points.
Frank is capable of dealing out a maximum of 12 points of damage/round once strength and magic bonuses are considered. The ogre is average and can deal a maximum of 10 points of damage/round.

Really, until the ogre's hit points drop to 12 or less or the fighter's hit points are reduced to 10 or less, initiative isn't important at all assuming no other tactical options are available (or thought of).

Just a random thought . . .

That may be true for a straight up slugfest, but it is, in my opinion, much easier to roll initiative every round instead of skipping it until one or more monsters are on the verge of dying on that very round. But, as others have pointed out, combat is not often just a slug fest. There are more often than not other things going on that require the players to roll initiative every round.

Also, rolling dice is fun!