Knights & Knaves Alehouse

In another thread the topic of: can a cleric fighter or cleric thief use a piercing or edged weapon came up. I don't recall seeing any ruling on this in the DMG or PH (but I'm sure we discussed this in a previous thread, here or at DF years ago). Considering the main benefit of being a fighter is getting a shit load of weapons proficiencies I think its logical to conclude Gygax had intended to lift the restriction of no piercing weapons when multi-classed or human dual classed. Curious to know what others think.

He said as much with regard to weapon specialisation as well. As far as he was concerned, by the time of Unearthed Arcana the cleric prohibition on edged weapons was past its usefulness. We can see this foreshadowed in the Greyhawk campaign setting where NPC elf clerics are specified as able to use edged and pointed weapons. Personally, I think it was past its usefulness a lot earlier!

PHB page 32 with bold from grodog wrote:The Multi-Classed Character

The game assumes that only non- or semi-human characters can be multi-classed, and only certain class combinations are possible, depending on the race of the character. Although these are listed in the section dealing with each race of character, multi-class character possibilities are also shown below in order to aid in selection of your character's class or multi-class. Cleric combinations (with fighter types) may use edged weapons.

FWIW, I've also allowed non-multi-classed clerics to use edged weapons when their gods use edged weapoins (that's not necessarily a proficiency slot that they can select as an acolyte, however...).

It's well-established that multi-classed cleric characters in 1E can use edged weapons. Anyone who says otherwise has probably spent too much time playing later editions

Grodog:

PHB page 32 with bold from grodog wrote:
The Multi-Classed Character
"Cleric combinations (with fighter types) may use edged weapons."


Well, it can't be disputed. Somehow missed or forgot about this.

I'm cool with evil clerics using some edged weapons. Human sacrifice just seems cooler with a sacrificial dagger.

- Wheggi

T. Foster wrote:It's well-established that multi-classed cleric characters in 1E can use edged weapons. Anyone who says otherwise has probably spent too much time playing later editions

Or, never reads the rule books.

"Cleric combinations (with fighter types) may use edged weapons. " -from the PHB page 32

So Cleric/Fighter, Cleric/Fighter/Magic-user, Cleric/Ranger can use edged weapons BTB without worrying about specialty priesthoods and preferred weapons of deities. I'm a softie I'll let Cleric/Assassins use edged weapons also.

Its all "in-game" trying to make a cleric universal is tough outside the specific campaign. You can't have that if you're of the "order of the mace" for example...

"Well, can I get special dispensation from the Optimo Mazzo to use another weapon that is edged if I am also a fighter?"

"Yes, the military pick..."

"Damn... but it says..."

"SHHHH!"

"But the rules..."

"SILENCE!"

"Can I just make another religion that uses something with more fire power..."

"Well, when you put it that way... NO!"

Seriously, the cleric played as is "bone dry" is the problem that I see with "digging for more" behaviors with players. Sometimes you have to give characters like that off the chart "magic" to make them feel potent. Theres a million different angles on it. The thing with spellcasters if you cut them off from the magical world too much (BTB minimal AS IS) then they come off as lame ass. You have to pass them secret notes telling them things that the others don't know and it makes it more exciting for them. The cleric in particular can be very exciting as they're part of a large unseen network automatically but that doesn't mean that magic-users aren't either. M-Us can create their own "mystical world" with a string of supernatural alliances. The only thing is they have to be provided. Bald modules don't have that campaign specific detail but its always been part of it. Even certain characters from famous campaigns are presented in modules are mostly altered but there is still that gyst that these characters are part of a dynamic campaign filled with an unseen world.

There are campaigns that like to take a moment outside the village of constitutional peers to describe a moment where a beautiful bard strums her lute underneath an oak tree well thats not something I see as fun. My village is part of a barony where if a worker works hard they can get some liberties like the players have as characters and instead of light touches of reposing fantasy characters "hippying about" instead there is a 100 foot tall yellow genie that only a few can see who talks with telepathy saying something interesting and valuable that its worth writing down. Sure this example is harshly over the top but I think thats what people really want when they play spellcasters a little more potential because they chose that class. ANd not this drudging "I wish I was a fighter" crap all the time.

Anyway, thats my two cents...

Wheggi wrote:I'm cool with evil clerics using some edged weapons. Human sacrifice just seems cooler with a sacrificial dagger.

- Wheggi

It's also way, way, way less messy than human sacrifice with a mace or club or flail.

"Guys, you might want to put some cotton in your ears, this guy isn't gonna go easy. Oh, and wear something you don't care about or is stain resistant."

Doesn't the World of Greyhawk boxed set allow some clerics edged or piercing weapon use at a certain level?

That's my bellweather. That and multi- or dual-classed characters. I don't dig on speculating about what Gary would or would not have done (or what he did in other games). AD&D is...AD&D.

grodog wrote:

PHB page 32 with bold from grodog wrote:The Multi-Classed Character

The game assumes that only non- or semi-human characters can be multi-classed, and only certain class combinations are possible, depending on the race of the character. Although these are listed in the section dealing with each race of character, multi-class character possibilities are also shown below in order to aid in selection of your character's class or multi-class. Cleric combinations (with fighter types) may use edged weapons.

FWIW, I've also allowed non-multi-classed clerics to use edged weapons when their gods use edged weapoins (that's not necessarily a proficiency slot that they can select as an acolyte, however...).

Hmm...I guess that makes me a mean old sonofabitch as a DM, and the odd man out, too: I personally don't like the idea of cleric PCs using edged weapons, even multiclassed non- or semi-human characters.

IIRC, we've had this very discussion in our group and I think I simply said "No, you can't, not in my campaign. I'm not going to allow you to reap the class-based benefits of one class or another while ignoring the limitations of that very same class, just because you're multi-classed."

The crying and whining ended shortly thereafter.

thedungeondelver wrote: Doesn't the World of Greyhawk boxed set allow some clerics edged or piercing weapon use at a certain level?

Yes, elf clerics in that supplement are permitted the use of edged and piercing weapons:

World of Greyhawk Glossography, p. 4 wrote: Elven clerics can and do wield all forms of edged and piercing weapons.

Wheggi wrote:I'm cool with evil clerics using some edged weapons. Human sacrifice just seems cooler with a sacrificial dagger.

- Wheggi

I agree, but in combat they grab their flail, mace etc. I wouldn't consider that sacrificial dagger a weapon proficiency.

No edged weapons for the cleric in my game. Right now I have a lot of players that are new to D&D, or at least new to old-style D&D. The prohibition against edged weapons is both a part of the old-school flavor, and it immediately illustrates to the new player that his cleric is a part of some order that has rules and expectations on how he behaves-- a very useful device.

I don't have to worry about elf clerics. In my game the elf priests are all M-Us or F-M/M-Us with no such restrictions. (And elf priests are all NPCs, so it wouldn't matter anyway.)

Just to get back to the original question, Axe also asked about cleric/thieves. And no, btb, there is no reason to think cleric/thieves can use edged weapons. Personally I think that they're restricted to clubs (which is the only place where the cleric and thief weapon tables intersect, iirc).