Knights & Knaves Alehouse

ThirstyStirge wrote:After 4 pages of this, I just feel sorry for the poor elephant we blind men are groping.

Don't. He's enjoying it. But one of us is about to have a very unpleasant shock.

Even better: blind man groping T-Rex!

- Wheggi

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

ThirstyStirge wrote:After 4 pages of this, I just feel sorry for the poor elephant we blind men are groping.

Apropos YouTube video?

That is wrongness in sooo many ways.

Wheggi wrote:Even better: blind man groping T-Rex!

- Wheggi

Damn! Forgot about this thing. Ringo Star was in this wasn't he?

geneweigel wrote:Yeah the "thief as scout" technique is so "unD&D". I'm so puked out by it. But its the embracing of the term "SCOUT" for "THIEF" as road to redemption that really drives me to the insane asylum. DO I really want my kids to join the "Boy Thieves of America"!?!? Its so standard "politically correct wrong" its ridiculous. Thieves are fucking crooks, period. How many times have you heard that "stuffed shirt original background":

"He learned a lesson early and to use those skills for good..."

BARF! Thats the "tang" that kills the class for me, never mind them "running ahead to scout" its the "I'm a boy scout" processed cheese alignment shit that really makes you want to nuke them from the game forever. "I'm a good thief" well then you're a good scumbag. Get over it!

The running ahead is a pain in the ass because 50% of the time you don't know if the DM is cool with it and meanwhile, the DM's favored player (I call this type player the DM's familiar/homonculous) gets the cheese while you're "doing good" and the DM thinks its bad. Traditionally everyone should have a "party caller/leader" and the "scout ahead" thing is almost always against this thinking as a "well, I'm doing this" kind of thing.

These are all good points. Yes, the thief is supposed to be scum the vast majority of the time, even Bilbo hid his ring (ie. bring one at your own risk) the DM is advised to award more eaps to those that act in character and deduct from those who don't (that means you may want to deduct EAPS to a thief thats acting "brave" or heroic when they are not of that character. Regardless, this is automatic tension (what did he steal), and if the players aren't friends I can see this being a serious problem (being polite vs. doing what you'd really do to the bastard). And any attempt to act as a thief (a fighter searching a room for treasure while avoiding traps) is going to be percieved by the thieves in the group as invading their party role. And who couldn't blame the fighter if they've been just sitting around killing things while the thieves are getting to discover the loot.

And yes they are difficult to play (the player falling back on abstract thief skills rather then role playing it out "are there shadows I can hide in" vs. "I HIS" or the DM being careful to keep in mind conditions (yeah, you can't HIS if there are no shadows). Its easy for the DM to play along with this superhero behavior just to move the group along to their big encounters.

Come to think of it, when we first started playing AD&D back in 79 or 80' thieves were very rare in our groups. When they did get used they almost always died (usually pressing their luck), and were always treated like scum by the rest of the group. Players that were thieves didn't admit it to the other players even.

The whole "scout" thing, though logical, probably wouldn't be something most thieves would really do btb. A thief is out for "number 1", there's no way he's going to be the guy that turns the corner first to be facing a troll that rips his head off...not by choice. He's the guy thats picking goodies off dead bodies, slitting throats, stealing from the group when no one is looking. I could see a thief coming back to the group saying "yeah the coast is clear move ahead" having not searched at all. The illustration of the thief in the PH should always be on the players and DMs mind. Hell, even Bilbo (argueable of good alignment) was forced into scouting ahead by cowardice dwarves.

Bottom line, the DM needs to really watch himself when it comes to thieves more then any other PC, and remind the player and the group just who and what they are supposed to be (if they forget, NPCs are always good to remind them with).

crub90706 wrote:

Wheggi wrote:Even better: blind man groping T-Rex!

- Wheggi

Damn! Forgot about this thing. Ringo Star was in this wasn't he?

Yes he was! Caveman is a monolith of cinematic awesome. We watch it at my house probably once a month.

- Wheggi

AxeMental wrote:These are all good points. Yes, the thief is supposed to be scum the vast majority of the time...

That's a generalization from the other side of the spectrum from the scout mentality. Are Good thieves (yes, Chaotic & Neutral) scum a "vast majority of the time?" I bet they cut a lot of corners when it doesn't "really" hurt anyone.

Axe and gene, let the players play. If somebody playing a Good thief wants to be a scout, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO CARE, no matter whether you like it or not. You know, that whole IMPARTIAL judge thing? If you don't want scouts in your game, then you're certainly allowed to disallow Good thieves.

Me? I think scouting isn't the best way to play a thief, but OTOH, some people like it, and what's it to me?

TheRedPriest wrote:

AxeMental wrote:These are all good points. Yes, the thief is supposed to be scum the vast majority of the time...

That's a generalization from the other side of the spectrum from the scout mentality. Are Good thieves (yes, Chaotic & Neutral) scum a "vast majority of the time?" I bet they cut a lot of corners when it doesn't "really" hurt anyone.

Axe and gene, let the players play. If somebody playing a Good thief wants to be a scout, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO CARE, no matter whether you like it or not. You know, that whole IMPARTIAL judge thing? If you don't want scouts in your game, then you're certainly allowed to disallow Good thieves.

Me? I think scouting isn't the best way to play a thief, but OTOH, some people like it, and what's it to me?

I completely understand where you're coming from. However, when they fall into the same old patterns not for emulation of S&S fantasy but for emulation of "TSR's politically correct realms" these aligned thieves aren't being as freely played as you're imagining. They're being played verbatim straight out of the 2e THIEF'S HANDBOOK. I would rather you play a sentient bucket than that crap.

geneweigel wrote:

TheRedPriest wrote:

AxeMental wrote:These are all good points. Yes, the thief is supposed to be scum the vast majority of the time...

That's a generalization from the other side of the spectrum from the scout mentality. Are Good thieves (yes, Chaotic & Neutral) scum a "vast majority of the time?" I bet they cut a lot of corners when it doesn't "really" hurt anyone.

Axe and gene, let the players play. If somebody playing a Good thief wants to be a scout, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO CARE, no matter whether you like it or not. You know, that whole IMPARTIAL judge thing? If you don't want scouts in your game, then you're certainly allowed to disallow Good thieves.

Me? I think scouting isn't the best way to play a thief, but OTOH, some people like it, and what's it to me?

I completely understand where you're coming from. However, when they fall into the same old patterns not for emulation of S&S fantasy but for emulation of "TSR's politically correct realms" these aligned thieves aren't being as freely played as you're imagining. They're being played verbatim straight out of the 2e THIEF'S HANDBOOK. I would rather you play a sentient bucket than that crap.

Ahhh .. there ya go. I've never read a 2e book that I recall.

AxeMental wrote: These are all good points. Yes, the thief is supposed to be scum the vast majority of the time, even Bilbo hid his ring ...

Hiding the ring wasn't too underhanded, I think, but when he stole the arkenstone -- that was very thievish.

Conan often refers to himself as a thief. (and acts like one, too)

TheRedPriest wrote: Me? I think scouting isn't the best way to play a thief, but OTOH, some people like it, and what's it to me?

It is strange as well, because Gygax indicates that the role of scout was theirs from the introduction of the class, and so presumably it was intended, but aside from comparative speed of movement there seems little to recommend it in this capacity.

DungeonDork wrote:Conan often refers to himself as a thief. (and acts like one, too)

Yes, and they're featured throughout with suggestions that reak of the thief class. Its almost as if by some weird dimensional warp Robert E. Howard knew exactly what AD&D was.

That said, the guy who cooked up the class (the fan mag guy?) could never foresee where this was headed as he almost directly sifoned it out of TOWER OF THE ELEPHANT.

Players should be free to play their fighters or magic-users as a thief like Conan or Cugel and not free to paint themselves into a corner because they like thieves but their conscious won't let them. Its like the thief as goodly scout is the laziest process of the hack work for Lorraine Williams' "keep it safe and simple because we don't know what we're doing" brand of "pseudo-Weird Tales game".

It is strange as well, because Gygax indicates that the role of scout was theirs from the introduction of the class, and so presumably it was intended, but aside from comparative speed of movement there seems little to recommend it in this capacity.

Heres something that falls into mind and pretty relevant. At GenCon 2002, when I fell back because of a trapdoor in a game we played in the hotel room with some old GH ghoul the events of my profoundly dissonant game behaviors were relayed to Gary the next day. I saw Gary and he said,"I heard about your barbarian Grok's antics." and he clamped my shoulder in a Vulcan neck pinch and said "Gene. Never leave the party." I think I was in sensory overload... Gary Gygax has heard of Grok by reputation alone... I AM NOMAD... I AM NOMAD..." **ZZTTTZZTT** ...and the advice that he said only hit me hours later... BUT... leaving... doesn't everybody... Whuh? I think it took me a while to digest that fully and it makes sense but should it be a rule? No way.

geneweigel wrote: I saw Gary and he said,"I heard about your barbarian Grok's antics." and he clamped my shoulder in a Vulcan neck pinch and said "Gene. Never leave the party."

And good advice in the general case, but I wonder if sending somebody quietly ahead in advance of the party by 90 feet or so to spy out the enemy qualifies as leaving the party; it is, after all, one round of movement for even mail clad warrior types.

Just for clarification, I was on the other side of a door that couldn't be opened it regrew.