Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I actually noticed this for the first time a few years ago, but always forget to bring it up...

The listed range modifiers for missile weapons are different in the PHB and DMG.

It's -1 for medium range and -2 for long range in the PHB and -2, -5 in the DMG. I've never seen any discussion about this fairly blatant and significant inconsistency. (Which is fairly remarkable considering all the arguments I've seen at - ahem - other places regarding fairly straight forward rules.)

I would assume the "official" stance is that the DMG modifiers are the ones to go with, as it was published later. But these seem fairly punitive, especially to low level magic-users (and to a lesser extent, clerics, thieves, and monks) who are going to need to get right on top of their opponents to be effective with missile weapons at all.

I imagine the more punitive range modifiers are there to lessen the effectiveness of bows. But in the dungeon setting, where the lack of light sources generally makes it so bows are never firing at long range anyway, it's really not a factor. Thus it'd really only be an issue in out door settings. Maybe the solution is to use the PHB modifiers indoors when the scale is feet, and the DMG modifiers outdoors when the scale is yards.

Thoughts?

On page 38 of my PHB it says −2/−5. Where are the −1/−2 modifiers from?

Matthew wrote:On page 38 of my PHB it says −2/−5. Where are the −1/−2 modifiers from?

Same page of my demon idol cover version of the PHB. I now notice that in my other demon idol cover version of the PHB it's -2, -5. I don't have it on me, but I'd assume in the orange spine version of the PHB I grew up with was also -2, -5, which would explain why I never noticed the difference until a couple years ago. That's when I got the demon idol cover PHB that I now use for bed-side reading reference. The other two, more worn books, are for game use.

Well, I guess that answers my question as to which range modifier is the official ruling.

Heh, I suspected as much. It is interesting to know about this sort of "quiet" errata, which also afflicted the second edition books to some degree. The range modifiers for Swords & Spells are interesting in this same respect, and may be the ultimate source of the −1/−2 modifiers, which I think are the modifiers applied to bows in that booklet (it is a little difficult to tell, because it is all rolled into weapon versus armour as well).

For instance, sling bullets versus AC 9 are 65/55/45 (−2/−4), whilst the bows are 60/55/50 or 65/60/55 (−1/−2).

For a listing of most published MM, PHB, and DMG errata, see the errata entries in the Acaeum Library.

Where did the -/-2/-5 adjustments come from? Did they originate with the DMG and get errata'ed in later printings of the PHB?

The Moldvay version had +1/-/-1 in range modifiers, which as far as I can tell completely originated with that version, but oddly came out at about the exact same time that the errata'ed PHBs started coming out.

Men & Magic (pg. 20) has the -/-1/-2 modifier, which is the same as my earlier pre-errata PHB.

I've now exhausted the extent of my D&D rules on hard drive at work. I left my external hard drive at home. (it's good to be the boss.)

Swords & Spells says to "adjust AC of defender downward by 1 level at medium range, by 2 levels at short range." (top of pg. 24)

That would be equivalent to +2/+1/-. Which is the same missile modifiers that JG offers in their Ready Ref Sheets, along with the notation that it is not to be used with the Greyhawk system. (The Greyhawk system combines weapon vs. AC and range, so that each missile weapon has a specific set of range modifiers for each target AC. For example, a longbow is +3/+2/+1 vs. No Armor, +2/+1/- vs. Mail, and -2/-3/-5 vs. Plate Mail and Shield.)

Pretty interesting.

grodog wrote:For a listing of most published MM, PHB, and DMG errata, see the errata entries in the Acaeum Library.

This reminds me: we probably need a sticky link to the errata, too. Can an admin please take care of that?

rogatny wrote: The Moldvay version had +1/-/-1 in range modifiers, which as far as I can tell completely originated with that version, but oddly came out at about the exact same time that the errata'ed PHBs started coming out.

Men & Magic (pg. 20) has the -/-1/-2 modifier, which is the same as my earlier pre-errata PHB.

Philotomy Jurament wrote: Swords & Spells says to "adjust AC of defender downward by 1 level at medium range, by 2 levels at short range." (top of pg. 24)

It is the same language in both Men & Magic and Swords & Spells, apparently:

"Missile hits will be scored by using the above tables at long range and decreasing Armour Class by 1 at medium and 2 at short range."

"Adjust armour class of defender downward by 1 level at medium range, and by two levels at short range."

Philotomy Jurament wrote: That would be equivalent to +2/+1/-. Which is the same missile modifiers that JG offers in their Ready Ref Sheets, along with the notation that it is not to be used with the Greyhawk system. (The Greyhawk system combines weapon vs. AC and range, so that each missile weapon has a specific set of range modifiers for each target AC. For example, a longbow is +3/+2/+1 vs. No Armour, +2/+1/- vs. Mail, and -2/-3/-5 vs. Plate Mail and Shield.)

Pretty interesting.

Same with Swords & Spells, some ranged weapons having a two point gap between ranges at certain armour classes, and others not. It looks like this reflects the Chain Mail system again, and is something of a haphazard adaptation of those probabilities.