Knights & Knaves Alehouse

D&D in 1974-5 has little in the rulebooks regarding the other planes of existence or the denizens thereof. There are elementals, the contact higher plane spell, and a handful of other unsystematized references.

Demons were added to the mix with the 1976 publication of Eldritch Wizardry, and in The Dragon #8 (July 1977) Gary first published what became AD&D's standard planar model. In that article Gary wrote, "As of this writing I foresee a number of important things arising from the adoption of this system. First, it will cause a careful rethinking of much of the justification for the happenings in the majority of D&D campaigns. Second, it will vastly expand the potential of all campaigns which adopt the system — although it will mean tremendous additional work for these DMs. Different planes will certainly have different laws and different inhabitants (although some of these beings will be familiar). Whole worlds are awaiting creation, complete invention, that is. Magical/technological/whatever items need be devised. And ways to move to these planes must be provided for discovery by players. Third, and worst from this writer’s point of view, it will mean that I must revise the whole of D&D to conform to this new notion. Under the circumstances, I think it best to do nothing more than offer the idea for your careful consideration and thorough experimentation. This writer has used only parts of the system in a limited fashion. It should be tried and tested before adoption."

When I think of the differences between OD&D and AD&D, the latter's greater emphasis on the planes always strikes me as a distinct difference in feel. For some reason when I think of 1974-1975 D&D, I think of dungeons and Wilderlands-style wilderness exploration. When I think of AD&D, I think of demons, devils, the outer planes, etc.

Planar travel has long been one of the big charms to me of D&D in general, and I do not really think of it as differentiated by edition in that respect; however, it is also true that planar travel has rarely featured over much in any D&D game I have ever participated, which is a shame, I suppose.

Since I started gaming in 1982 (all AD&D, no D&D), planar travel* has only appeared in one campaign... and that one was an extremely unusual and "hyper-powered" one, and even there we only visited the Astral & Ethereal planes as temporary sanctuaries from the BBEGs we were in combat against on the PMP.

Basically, even after the Manual of the Planes came out, nobody wanted to do much with the other planes.



* we never considered making a trip to "The Hells" as being planar travel... they were just "The Hells", you know?

I once had a DM who loved Planescape and railroaded us to there. We hated it.

Thing is, I've never seen a really fantastic AD&D interplaner adventure. The closest we've come is Q1, and honestly it ain't all that great (well, more like a missed opportunity). I would love to see one published. Hell, I'd love to write one if I had the time!

- Wheggi
NOW PLAYING ON RADIO WHGI: "Voices" by Russ Ballard

The planar stuff is really kind of odd in my games. I think about the planes a fair amount within homebrew settings, and say to myself "a force on his plane is doing <x> causing <y> to happen on the prime material", but the players don't ever really interact at the planar level.

So on one level, the planar cosmology helps to lay the foundation of my games, but there is very little interaction where the rubber meets the road.

To me the integration of the multiversal cosmology into the core of the game (which isn't limited just to physical travel across planes but also includes notions like how clerics get their spells, presence of other-planar creatures on the prime, and the whole 2-axis alignment scheme as a reflection of "cosmic truth") is probably the chief distinguishing element of AD&D as compared to OD&D. Yeah a lot of that stuff was already present in embryonic form in OD&D (especially in the later supplements and SR/TD articles) but in a sort of ad-hoc, optional manner, whereas in AD&D it is up-front and fundamental to the structure of the game-universe. Even if a group of AD&D characters never leave the prime plane (though I would argue that they probably should at some point, and most of the classic Gygax (&/or Kuntz) modules bear this out) and never pay any comscious attention to it, the multiversal cosmology will still impact what they do and how the game-world works at almost every level. To me, the multiverse is just as fundamental to AD&D as the dungeon is to OD&D -- it's possible to play the game without it, but to do so would seem to be somewhat missing the point. [Another thought: the continued (and even increased) focus on the multiverse in Dangerous Journeys, contrasted with its de-emphasis (pretty much total absence, at least in the core books) in 2E AD&D is surely one of the big reasons why I always maintained that DJ felt "more like AD&D" to me than TSR's 2E.]

I disagree that "planes of existence" (a concept grandiose in intent but empty in execution) are important or even relevant to a an AD&D campaign. Gygax presents in The Dragon #8 (July 1977) nothing but dust and moonshine. There is nothing substantial presented here and I am reminded of the "planets" visited in star trek where we really encounter nothing more sophisticated or elaborate than a quirky frontier village.

There is something bombastic and cheap about these infinite spaces of [substitute dramatic descriptor] when populating landscapes as prosaic as polar icecaps or an island studded with volcanoes with demons would stretch most good DMs imaginations to breaking point. Gygax' got little wrong in my view but it is vulgar to think you can evoke cosmic awe with these empty enormous ideas. The DM should take ownership of his beings of great power and his cosmology and not mindlessly adopt this lazy scheme.

The "Planes" as presented are a refuge for DMs whose players somehow exhaust his resourcefulness in keeping them interested in his world without using ever more gigantic adjectives.

Somebody got up on the wrong side of Nirvana

Stonegiant wrote:Somebody got up on the wrong side of Nirvana

Maybe so. However I fear that the impressive knowledge of minutiae over all early editions on display here fosters a reluctance to tinker with those details at the expense of encouraging creativity in rule implementation. OD&D for some reason gets a pass as discussed ad nauseam on other threads. I mean even *alignment* should have to be justified or personally defined in each campaign in my view nevermind *the planes*.

Stonegiant wrote:Somebody got up on the wrong side of Nirvana

That's his default state. Kent is seemingly completely incapable of making a single post without being aggressive, condescending, and outright insulting. If you can look past the tone he usually makes actual valid points, but why should we have to?

T. Foster wrote:Kent is seemingly completely incapable of making a single post without being aggressive, condescending, and outright insulting. If you can look past the tone he usually makes actual valid points, but why should we have to?

I won't use another smiley in case I devalue that currency. Look, the way I see it I aim to contribute to discussion not affirmation and I believe people react emotionally to opposition tending to read words more colourfully than is intended. Let a fella have his say without ganging up on him, eh?

Wheggi wrote:Thing is, I've never seen a really fantastic AD&D interplaner adventure. The closest we've come is Q1, and honestly it ain't all that great (well, more like a missed opportunity). I would love to see one published. Hell, I'd love to write one if I had the time!

- Wheggi
NOW PLAYING ON RADIO WHGI: "Voices" by Russ Ballard

I agree with this sentiment. The tricky thing with the planes is its anyones guess as to what they look like, and not much reference-wise. I always got the impression each plane was filled with alot of monsters that don't make it to the MM. Its perhaps the DMs most difficult challenge.

I love mini planar adventures. The four elemental nodes in T2 are fun. There’s a Greek Mythology plane in S4, which was cool. The players in my campaigns have gone to the Elemental Plane of Fire, as well as Arcadia. And of course there is Blibdoolpoolp’s realm in the Elemental Plane of Water (via D2). I’m sure I’m missing some. (Heck, just about all of the Kuntz modules deal with demi-planes, though I haven’t run most of them.) All of these vignettes have been very memorable for the players—an exciting change of scenery that felt exceptionally dangerous since they were off familiar ground. And exciting for me, too, as I got to completely wing an exotic world I wasn’t expecting to in most cases. So I intend to keep providing the opportunity for these. (Barsoom is definitely on the list!)

In a sense, G2 and G3 (but especially G2) feel like demi-planes, too. They might as well be, almost, one being the frozen extreme north and the other the burning extreme south, i.e. Jotunheim and Muspelheim of Norse Mythology (via “The Roaring Trumpet” by Pratt and de Camp). I wonder if someone who objects to the formal planes layout would be happier with an outlook which places every possible exotic locale (including the afterlife) on the same “plane”. Either way you look at it, it comes out about the same, I reckon. Is a Greek Mythology Plane less exciting than if you could just travel to your world’s “Greece” by ship? I guess it depends how much you intend to use it. I certainly don’t see either option as less imaginative.

Personally, ever since I read The Magician’s Nephew as a young boy, I have been intrigued by the idea of traveling to not just one other world but many!

Falconer wrote:I wonder if someone who objects to the formal planes layout would be happier with an outlook which places every possible exotic locale (including the afterlife) on the same “plane”. Either way you look at it, it comes out about the same, I reckon. Is a Greek Mythology Plane less exciting than if you could just travel to your world’s “Greece” by ship?

You make interesting points but I would just point out that Greece was and is smaller than Illinois. I think there is an underappreciation of the scales involved and what those who use planes probably like best is the clean cut and isolation from previous material. I think integrating these special places into a fantasy world prompts the DM to imagine formidable landscapes to create the same sense of isolation and the journeys themselves become momentous as when The Noldor crossed the Helcaraxe and the two lads crossed the Moruna and climbed Koshtra Pivrarcha and Koshtra Belorn. How do characters get to different planes, teleportation devices or spells? Is there a sense of journey?

Now, I am not arguing that those who enjoy the use of planes should reconsider but that those who havent yet conceived of the big picture for their campaign should not feel obliged, at all, to use that model.