Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I share your fascination for momentous journeys in literature, but do they have a place in this particular game? After reading the “Time in the Campaign” section of the DMG, I should think they ought to be intentionally minimalized within the context of AD&D, otherwise you end up spending too much time playing “catchup” with the characters who are not involved in the journey.

If you have a campaign of a single party only, and every player is always present at every session, then perhaps this is not a concern. But that is obviously not the assumed format of AD&D.

Nevertheless, a momentous journey can work in a game (c.f. Descent Into the Depths of the Earth), but sometimes instead you just want a quick “vignette” for a change of pace. That’s when magical travel does the trick just fine.

Falc: "I love mini planar adventures. The four elemental nodes in T2 are fun."

Mini-planar is by far the easier route. And I agree, we've had alot of really cool adventures based on those sorts of things. Also neat are planar boundaries where you can mix a little of both worlds together. My online game at OSU had a good bit of this, but the PCs didn't want to mess with it (which was wise given their level).

A great old computer game, Might & Magic II, had the Elemental Planes in the four corners of the world. There were barriers keeping low-level characters out of the actual planes (and keeping the Elementals in), but there was a sort of “blend of the planes” effect going on like you describe (as you can see from the map). Man, I loved that game.

Falconer wrote:they ought to be intentionally minimalized within the context of AD&D, otherwise you end up spending too much time playing “catchup” with the characters who are not involved in the journey. If you have a campaign of a single party only, and every player is always present at every session, then perhaps this is not a concern.

Yes I only ever have a single group of players. The journeys are rare because they are forbidding at low levels and usually kill player characters when attempted but they are played through the same as any other adventuring so I am not sure why you drew a distinction if there were two separate parties.

Falconer wrote:sometimes instead you just want a quick “vignette” for a change of pace. That’s when magical travel does the trick just fine.

I think I understand better what you and others use planes for. They are more a facet of DMing technique than deep background and structure for a campaign.

kent wrote:Yes I only ever have a single group of players. The journeys are rare because they are forbidding at low levels and usually kill player characters when attempted but they are played through the same as any other adventuring so I am not sure why you drew a distinction if there were two separate parties.

Read “Time in the Campaign” in the DMG to get my meaning. Suppose you have 13 players total in your campaign, and 8 of them show up on a given night. They take a long journey. Lots of time passes for them in a single session—months or years even.

Next game night, 8 players show up, of whom 4 were part of the group that went on the journey. Now they are in different places and times. Possibly the entire session will be spent in catchup. Activity (commerce? training? language learning? travel to join the other party?) must be resolved for the group that is behind in time. The whole night might be gone by the time the groups are able to merge into a single party (IF possible at all)!

I have been in that situation in which half of the players were in an Elemental Node while the other half were back in Hommlet. It took some time to reconcile but it wasn’t difficult. Time wasn’t an issue (one week of catchup for the second group). And, though the Elemental Node was infinitely distant from Hommlet in one sense, travel between the two is a piece of cake if you know where to go! (I think the groups were able to magically communicate their respective positions, but I don’t recall for sure how they managed it.)

Falconer wrote:Suppose you have 13 players total in your campaign, and 8 of them show up on a given night. They take a long journey. Lots of time passes for them in a single session—months or years even. Next game night, 8 players show up, of whom 4 were part of the group that went on the journey. Now they are in different places and times. Possibly the entire session will be spent in catchup. Activity (commerce? training? language learning? travel to join the other party?) must be resolved for the group that is behind in time. The whole night might be gone by the time the groups are able to merge into a single party (IF possible at all)!

I see. I am clear now that the idea is to some degree one of table management. I have never had more than four or five players and never wanted more than three. Still my players wanted to go their own way for weeks at a time but the time dislocation never created a problem for me, I probably partly handwaved it and partly used it as a random disturbance to the smooth running of the game that needed improvisation. Since I started back playing we have always played together waiting for a day that suits everyone. Anyway I see how the idea is convenient for those with many players but for me too intrusive on campaign "big picture" development.

Falconer wrote:I have been in that situation in which half of the players were in an Elemental Node while the other half were back in Hommlet. It took some time to reconcile but it wasn’t difficult. Time wasn’t an issue (one week of catchup for the second group). And, though the Elemental Node was infinitely distant from Hommlet in one sense, travel between the two is a piece of cake if you know where to go! (I think the groups were able to magically communicate their respective positions, but I don’t recall for sure how they managed it.)

I made a decision in my late teens as a DM never to allow teleport or fast travel spells of any kind influenced I suppose by those fantasy works I admired. The physical landscape of the world takes on more character that way IMO and you can almost see contour maps of power in the more inaccessible regions. Perhaps this decision influenced my dislike of planes and planar travel. I appreciate you illustrating Gygax' thinking on the subject. Ta.

D&D (and the fantasy of fiction plus the fiction of fantasy) operates on "another world" mentality hence the path of least resistance of "going into D&D for real" seen in the first (lackluster, IMO) D&D novel QUAG KEEP seemed so natural.

I do agree that the infinite planes of infinity have confounded me since day one of my D&D journey. E.G. "Infinite burning wastes have one front gate?", "Does this infinite domain of pure chaos and good in equal amounts have a dark side?" or "If I'm good and in Tarterus whats to stop everyone of good alignment from moving in here and would that change everything?"

"The planes" straight out as "hell is a burning plane with an infinite grid over the next mountain range" is not doable. The real nature of these planes is an unmappable place that makes no sense except to those of true faith and when it does "make sense" it still doesn't make physical sense. Lets take B2 as an example of the whole of the Nine Hells in play. If you jump off the side of the castle it all goes to the same place: a fiery pit. The domain of a lawful evil god is entered through a statue in the chapel, the "wars" of hell are played out in the upper yard and everything is shrunk to fit, etc.,etc.,etc..

I think the concept is good as long as you don't go the Roger Moore's astral article route of an effect for each spell. That leads to...well... THE MANUAL OF THE PLANES. The idea of overclocking a pencil and paper game was never a good idea and thats what that "effect for each spell" trend did. It overclocked planes so that nobody cared to bother with them anymore. With that overbaking mentality it drives your expectations to "megadungeon" the afterlife by default. Don't do it. Keep it confusing but don't go "Tolkien journey" on it. There is no journey of Frodo after he gets on the boat, there is no council of the Maiar after the defeat of the Balrog, all that shit takes place on the "head of a pin". Use it like that. "Was it a dream?" etc.