Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Huh? It was? I didn't know that.

I still like it, and it may be something really cool once implemented away from Greenwood's world.

- Wheggi

It's also present in Pratchett's "Discworld" (see Small Gods in particular) and at least implicitly in Leiber (see "Lean Times in Lankhmar" in Swords in the Mist and "Rime Isle" in Swords and Ice Magic), so it's not like Greenwood's the first or only one to think of it...

Wheggi wrote:Huh? It was? I didn't know that.

I still like it, and it may be something really cool once implemented away from Greenwood's world.

- Wheggi

It is something really cool.
You don't have to have "story/narrative" bullshit, Mary Sues up the whazzoo and whatever other ridiculous changes to a setting timeline, Times of Trouble or whatnot, the idiots at TSR implemented for "the game's own good" (yeah, right) to make that concept work for your game.

And it gives me levity to have savages worship a stone idol and have said stone idol actually grant spells. I like that.

- Wheggi

Actually, I don't think it's even a Greenwood thing in FR. 1E FR didn't have those rules.

And just poking a little fun, that's all. Coming into the hobby the summer before 2E came out (TSR got thier money's worth out of me - I bought all the 1E stuff in June, and then in August the 2E came out), I'm pretty familar with 2E even though I migrated back to 1E within a couple of years. So whenever I see a post from someone with grognard bona fides praising a concept that 2E was proud off, it does give me a chuckle.

Another example is Kask on DF. A while ago (inevitably) someone asked him for his take on the 1E intiative rules. He replied that he doesn't use those - when playing at someone's house they used a D10, with a modifier added to reflect the difficulty of the action, spell, etc. Another poster commented that this was 2E initiative, and that whoever he was playing with probably lifted it from that system. But in the couple of times since that Kask has talked about how he does initiative, rather than just say "I use 2E initiative", he gives its origin as this houserule he saw at someone else's table.

Anyway, minor attempt at humor over. Carry on with the usual great discussion.

Wheggi wrote:And it gives me levity to have savages worship a stone idol and have said stone idol actually grant spells. I like that.

- Wheggi

Yeah, me too. Sometimes meteorites should be able to also IMO.

Most people I knew who had D&DG only used it as some kind of "Monster Manual" for their ubermunchkin characters to plow through; I would say that the Lankhmar and Melnibone sections are actually VERY useful, demihuman deities less so (primarily because IIRC Gary said the demihumans worship the same gods as everyone else).

The rules for above 18 stats are a little hazy; I mean, we're told that 19+ CHA gives Awe Power (for gods only), but what of godlike WIS (such as through a pearl of wisdom) being bestowed - do we crack D&DG for those rules, and give the exceptional WIS abilities to humans, or treat 18 as the maximum and anything above as merely higher numbers on the character sheet?

I like D&DG, I am not in love with it. I can use it or not.

Oh, and protip: The versions with the Moorcock and Lovecraft inspired mythos are not rare. People who want $60 a copy are just being dicks. Something like 40000 of them were printed.

Falconer wrote:I think it’s worth having. It definitely should be off-limits to players. The whole point of offering gods from Greek Mythology and such is that players know enough to go by off the top of their heads, and can easily research themselves if they want more info.

Arguably it does stifle DM creativity, but isn’t that true of every single RPG product since the original D&D set? The whole point of a book is to do your work for you. For what it’s worth, there continued to be other gods books and homebrew pantheons since DDG, just as there were other monster books and homebrew monsters since the MM1.

I think Sup IV is more useful, since it has more of a focus on monsters and artifacts from mythology. Still, as you mentioned, the Cthulhu section of DDG is legendary, and I still get a kick out of various odd little bits in there.

What he said.

The problem we're having in all these arguments about "stifling DM creativity", "beginning of the end" and so on is that we feel forced into some sort of trench warfare positions which changes the nature of the debates from a discussion of degrees and nuances into "either... or" scenarios, which fundamentally misrepresent the nature of the issues being discussed, IMO.

Odhanan wrote:The problem we're having in all these arguments about "stifling DM creativity", "beginning of the end" and so on is that we feel forced into some sort of trench warfare positions which changes the nature of the debates from a discussion of degrees and nuances into "either... or" scenarios, which fundamentally misrepresent the nature of the issues being discussed, IMO.

<digs foxhole>
YOU LIE!

If those little sweethearts won't face 3tard and 4on bullets, by God they'll face K&K ones!

(ref. Paths of Glory)

thedungeondelver wrote: Oh, and protip: The versions with the Moorcock and Lovecraft inspired mythos are not rare. People who want $60 a copy are just being dicks. Something like 40000 of them were printed.

Most of those were supposed to have been destroyed, as only a part of the run had reached bookstores when TSR's front office had them pulled*.

However, that didn't always happen, as I found out from first-hand experience.



Back in 1986, when finding a first-run D&DG really was a rare occurrence (they were going for $40+ each at the auctions for worn copies), I attended a con in LA (in August, I believe).

On the last day (Sunday), around 10 AM, I wandered into the "overflow" section of the sellers' area... where all those who hadn't reserved a slot were parked.

To my amazement, there was a guy with a full pallet of mint-condition D&DG... 9 books per layer, almost 4' high... priced at $10 each. I picked one up, looked at the index, and nearly fainted! Cthulhu & Melnibonean mythos were there!

I quickly checked a few more, confirmed they were all the same, and bought one.

I then ran (not walked) to find my friends, showed them the book, and we all came back & bought more copies.

Then we told him what he had, and what they were going for, and he said "I'm just clearing out some warehouse space from the previous owner... a book distributor that went out of business a few years ago. I don't care about getting more for them, I just need to get rid of them."

By 4 PM, he had maybe 50 left... out of over 500 that he had come with!

Ever since then, about 1/3 the D&DG I have seen in used bookstores have been first-run copies. I strongly suspect that more such stashes have been sold off over the years, which is why what was once "rare" is now simply "uncommon"



*Jim Ward did have written permission to include both mythos, and this would have held up if the issue had reached lawsuit status (the new "game rights" holders for Cthulhu had only purchased exclusive rights for new game systems based on Lovecraft's works, not for all game uses, so Jim's earlier permission was still valid).

But the TSR drones felt it was better to not risk the expense of defending the use, so they ordered it removed... and since another company was working on a Stormbringer game had that deleted also.

BlackBat242 wrote:

thedungeondelver wrote: Oh, and protip: The versions with the Moorcock and Lovecraft inspired mythos are not rare. People who want $60 a copy are just being dicks. Something like 40000 of them were printed.

Most of those were supposed to have been destroyed, as only a part of the run had reached bookstores when TSR's front office had them pulled*.

Then I must be the luckiest man alive; I've had no fewer than nine copies, all of them bought used, all of them with the Cthulhu and Elric information, and not one cost me more than $20.

Hell I've given copies away!

And did you read further... where I gave an example that showed that many weren't, but were parked in forgotten warehouse corners for years?


I've had 4 D&DG... only the first one was without the Cthulhu & Melnibonean mythos.

Yes, there are a lot of them around... but most of them were either first sold to the public years after they had been reported destroyed or have only recently been given up by their original owners.

For much of the 1980s, they were hard to find... they have actually become easier to find (even in used bookstores & game stores) than they were 25 years ago.