Knights & Knaves Alehouse

In 1st Ed. AD&D, war dogs can greatly help a party. They can be melee combatants, they can help to guard camps at night, etc.

How does one set limits on player use of war dogs? If a solo character spent a lot of money on war dogs when starting out, one might assume there would not be enough cash for more than three or four dogs. If, however, a low-level character started maintaining a platoon of twenty or forty war dogs, at what point would the DM have to start imposing limits?

I can think of a few different limits.

1. Charisma check to avoid dog disobedience.

2. Strength check to avoid being knocked over by dog playfulness.

3. Intelligence check to coordinate dogs properly and prevent them from obstructing each other.

4. Mandatory down time spent on dog health and training.

I don't think it would be fair to impose the same charisma limits on dogs that are imposed on human followers. Dogs are more obedient than paid employees. However, perhaps some charisma limit should exist -- dogs are loyal to the "top dog," the "alpha of the pack," and a low-charisma PC might not be able to keep a large number of dogs loyal.

Couple things:

A.) hard to sneak around a dungeon with a pack of dogs, no matter how well trained. Also, if all these dogs are marking their territory, they'll be very easy to track.

B.) Dog's gotta eat and drink, and food and water are resources that will need to be considered.

C.) The dogs may love their owner, but there's no telling how they'll react to strangers, other characters or even other dogs in the pack. Also, they may be prone to attack supernatural creatures without provocation.

- Wheggi

Dogs to guard the characters' camp or hunt in the wilderness: good idea. Dogs to accompany parties into a dungeon and fight for them like tougher men-at-arms: bad idea. I'd generally say that under normal circumstances (i.e. barring use of spells like animal friendship) a guard dog or hunting dog would refuse to accompany a party into a dungeon at all. Even if the party does manage this, any more than 2-3 dogs will be very hard to control, and would probably require a hired animal trainer (at a cost of at least 50 g.p. per month -- considerably more if he is expected to accompany a party into dungeons). For a pack of 20+ dogs I'd probably require 2 or 3 such trainers. Add to that the issues wheggi mentioned: noise and smell (no chance of achieving surprise, increased wandering monster checks, decreased chance of evasion, etc.), need to carry extra food & water, and problems with controlling all those dogs, and players will very quickly begin to have second thoughts about their clever game-breaking plan.

EDIT: a couple more things -- I'd probably allow a character one (1) dog companion of exceptional loyalty and obedience if the player works it into the character's backstory. This dog must be present from the inception of the character and if it dies cannot be replaced. Also, moving beyond the BTB designation, IMO the war dog stats in the MM (AC 6, HD 2+2, dmg 2-8) are fairly ridiculously overpowered when compared to the stats of 0-level men-at-arms. I'd recommend ignoring those stats completely, using the wild dog stats (AC 7, HD 1+1, dmg 1-4) for guard dogs, and using the jackal stats (AC 7, HD 1/2, dmg 1-2) for hunting dogs.

T. Foster wrote:Dogs to guard the characters' camp or hunt in the wilderness: good idea. Dogs to accompany parties into a dungeon and fight for them like tougher men-at-arms: bad idea. I'd generally say that under normal circumstances (i.e. barring use of spells like animal friendship) a guard dog or hunting dog would refuse to accompany a party into a dungeon at all. Even if the party does manage this, any more than 2-3 dogs will be very hard to control, and would probably require a hired animal trainer (at a cost of at least 50 g.p. per month -- considerably more if he is expected to accompany a party into dungeons). For a pack of 20+ dogs I'd probably require 2 or 3 such trainers. Add to that the issues wheggi mentioned: noise and smell (no chance of achieving surprise, increased wandering monster checks, decreased chance of evasion, etc.), need to carry extra food & water, and problems with controlling all those dogs, and players will very quickly begin to have second thoughts about their clever game-breaking plan.

I think the food and water logistics are doable -- at least they're no worse than the logistics of a normal expedition. Pack mules or bags of holding would be necessary, as usual.

As for dungeons, I hadn't even considered the problem. I don't know that dogs would dislike underground areas, specifically, but I could definitely see dogs freaking out at the smell of an underground area inhabited by exotic monsters.

(A cave inhabited by giant badgers, on the other hand, would probably be okay.)

As for lack of surprise -- yes, of course, dogs are noisy, especially in groups.

I wasn't really considering war dogs as dungeon crawlers so much as wilderness adventurers. In a wilderness setting, the howling and smells of a pack of dogs might still prevent stealth, and the fact that dogs like to run around might cause high-spirited dogs to run away and get lost.

I think the animal-handler hireling requirement is pretty fair, compared to the cost of a mercenary. The difference is that an Intelligence 9 mercenary can use things like a bow or a tinderbox, and a semi-intelligent war dog can't understand more than a few simple words.

Wheggi wrote: C.) The dogs may lover their owner, but there's no telling how they'll react to strangers, other characters or even other dogs in the pack. Also, they may be prone to attack supernatural creatures without provocation.

- Wheggi

Dogs would be subject to different morale distinctions than humans.

In particular, *smells* can freak out dogs in real life. A well-behaved dog can turn into a slavering crazy-dog when it smells something mildly weird half a mile away.

Assuming supernatural creatures smell *weird*, I can see rolling on a random table for all kinds of things -- stunned panic, attacking the creature, fleeing, etc.

Outdoors having a large group of dogs is much more feasible than indoors. Still, any more than 2 or 3 and they're going to be really hard to handle -- requiring trainers, making a lot of noise, and presumably slowing down the party's progress overland as they chase off after game and have to be rounded up, have to be fed and rested, etc. There's more of an upside, though, as they can guard the camp/caravan to prevent bad guys from sneaking up on it, can scare off encounters with mundane animals (something like a stag or mountain lion isn't going to approach a camp with a dozen dogs guarding it), and so on. And unlike a group of hired men-at-arms, you can be pretty sure your dogs aren't going to rob and murder you when you come out of the dungeon laden with treasure and low on spells and hit points

Unless the dog was somewhat familiar with the smell of monsters (perhaps threw training by its handler) it would probably flee (or refuse to go forward) from most monster lairs espl. those highly supernatural or evil (dragons, undead, trolls etc.) but perhaps not more common humanoids (like orcs, knolls, kolbolds) and if its just some human bandits held up in a house, sure (RL canines do this for cops and soldiers). If a dog was cornered I think it would also attack (regardless of the monster type) but might not continue forward after that point (too freaked out).

Attack dogs were bred and raised for combat, so I wouldn't totally make them useless (even inside a dungeon). I'd take each dungeon as an individual case, room by room (rather then just make it a blanket case of never). Whats n the room, whats been in it, and whats generally lurking around?

You might make specially trained dogs available that might go into some dungeons (and make them very expensive, say x 10 normal cost) just so you don't take the option away completely, this is afterall a supernatural fantasy world and they are part of the game. Regardless, I wouldn't allow dogs to lead inside (as trap detectors etc.)

I'm not a dog person, so I don't know how dogs are supposed to learn to stay with a PC that just buys it and doesn't know the first thing about dog care, giving commands etc. in the first place. Perhaps require the PC to go threw training and spend time getting to know the animal before adventuring (several weeks).

Druids and Monks (high enough to speak with animals) would be extremely useful when dealing with dogs I think. Still, short of some sort of magical charm, they aren't going to take undo risks (and even then, they won't be able to move past their primal fears/ nature vs. unnatural (something only humans are far enough removed from to not instinctually detect (except perhaps someone like Conan).

As a RL dog-owner (grew up with a malamute, and have had several husky and mal-husky crosses after finishing 8 years USMC), and having assisted with USN/USMC dog training (as practice 'target' for drug dogs), I have a couple of statements.

1. A well-trained attack/guard/war dog will do a lot at its handler's command that a normal dog won't... but that dog and handler MUST be a well-trained team.


2. A trained dog performs far better when it is introduced/retrained with its new handler by its old handler, and for at least 20 1-hour+ sessions (max of 3 per day).
Less, even if the new handler has animal training/animal handling proficiency (yes, survival guides... ) or an equivalent secondary skill, means at least 1 day per missed session must be spent getting the dog to trust the new handler and to understand the new handler's body language & commands.


3. Guard dogs: Specific training must be spent familiarizing the dog with each person or animal to be guarded, to get the dog to protect them. Any creature the dog is not familiarized to which continues to approach after the dog sounds a "warning" will be attacked.


4. attack/war dogs: Specific training must be spent familiarizing the dog with each person or animal to be fought beside, to get the dog to not attack them.

They require specific commands to attack a target, and requires additional commands to change targets or return to a non-combat mode... if it cannot hear/see the handler, or if the handler is incapacitated, you have a very dangerous situation... unexpected actions by a party member may induce the dog to attack them, or the dog might defend the handler from even party members.


4. Confusion (for a dog) means emotional stress, and this means "fight-or-flight" becomes a foremost reaction. Positive and continuous control must be maintained over the dog.


5. Companion dogs require far less training... but will become useless, or flee, or become uncontrollably aggressive if faced with unfamiliar and stressful situations... like combat or most monsters.

BlackBat242 wrote:As a RL dog-owner (grew up with a malamute, and have had several husky and mal-husky crosses after finishing 8 years USMC), and having assisted with USN/USMC dog training (as practice 'target' for drug dogs), I have a couple of statements.

1. A well-trained attack/guard/war dog will do a lot at its handler's command that a normal dog won't... but that dog and handler MUST be a well-trained team.


2. A trained dog performs far better when it is introduced/retrained with its new handler by its old handler, and for at least 20 1-hour+ sessions (max of 3 per day).
Less, even if the new handler has animal training/animal handling proficiency (yes, survival guides... ) or an equivalent secondary skill, means at least 1 day per missed session must be spent getting the dog to trust the new handler and to understand the new handler's body language & commands.


3. Guard dogs: Specific training must be spent familiarizing the dog with each person or animal to be guarded, to get the dog to protect them. Any creature the dog is not familiarized to which continues to approach after the dog sounds a "warning" will be attacked.


4. attack/war dogs: Specific training must be spent familiarizing the dog with each person or animal to be fought beside, to get the dog to not attack them.

They require specific commands to attack a target, and requires additional commands to change targets or return to a non-combat mode... if it cannot hear/see the handler, or if the handler is incapacitated, you have a very dangerous situation... unexpected actions by a party member may induce the dog to attack them, or the dog might defend the handler from even party members.


4. Confusion (for a dog) means emotional stress, and this means "fight-or-flight" becomes a foremost reaction. Positive and continuous control must be maintained over the dog.


5. Companion dogs require far less training... but will become useless, or flee, or become uncontrollably aggressive if faced with unfamiliar and stressful situations... like combat or most monsters.

That is absolutely awesome.

Thank you.

So clearly, *time* and effort is very realistic constraint. The party should not have five war dogs unless they are willing to *train* five war dogs to the point where they become NPCs.

This would be IMHO an awesome way to build backstory and character for someone like a ranger or a druid.

The war dog is not just a survival tactic for 1st-level characters -- the war dog is an NPC cohort!

That time/training sounds like an awesome treasure sink.

I usually make my characters do CHA checks on commanding war/guard dogs to do things, or in stressful situations. If the PC/dog survives for about a year (in game) or 1 to 2 levels, I'll drop that requirement.

Thanks Black Bat, thats exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.
One more question, how do you think a well trained guard dog would compare to a well trained war horse in AD&D? I realize a horse with a rider on it will obey commands more easily (in your example for instance, you mention a war horse will charge a dragon because it is commanded to) would a war dog? I suspect horses are a special case in this regard (perhaps I am wrong?).

Well, trained hunting dogs in the real world will attack a mountain lion or bear... and even untrained companion dogs have been documented as attacking bears, etc to protect their owners, so I see no problem with a trained guard/war dog attacking most things it is commanded to.

The key is the degree of attachment with the handler... whether one of loyalty/love or of trust/training makes little difference at first... but what happens after the initial attack is indeed greatly dependent on training.


Most animals depend (in nature) on body language for communication, so both warhorses and guard/war dogs need to be able to "read" the body language of their rider/handler... and this takes time and work.



Of course, then you have Goblins riding Worgs, and Kobbits riding Dire Wolves (and poofy elves riding sissified wolves in comic books)... combining the mount/dog motifs.

riprock wrote:I can think of a few different limits.

1. Charisma check to avoid dog disobedience.

2. Strength check to avoid being knocked over by dog playfulness.

3. Intelligence check to coordinate dogs properly and prevent them from obstructing each other.

4. Mandatory down time spent on dog health and training.

I don't think it would be fair to impose the same charisma limits on dogs that are imposed on human followers. Dogs are more obedient than paid employees. However, perhaps some charisma limit should exist -- dogs are loyal to the "top dog," the "alpha of the pack," and a low-charisma PC might not be able to keep a large number of dogs loyal.

Maintaining control over a large number of guard/war dogs would be more difficult than it might seem. Using sled dogs as an example, they follow the lead of the alpha who is controlled by the driver, but it is always a struggle for the driver to maintain pack cohesion (and this is when they are harnessed and pulling the sled...the guard/war dogs wouldn't be).

I remember watching the Iditarod awhile back and hearing one of the drivers talk about how hard it was to keep control of the dogs. At night he kept them on a single chain, but at a distance from each other, and during the day he had to spend a lot of time and effort maintaining order or one dog might turn on the dog next to it and mass melee would ensue. And these "vicious beasts" are just sled dogs, not the trained killers that war mastiffs would be.

I would assume having war dogs would be like the first scene in Conan the Barbarian, with an animal handler having two (or four) snarling, lunging beasts on leashes, ready at a moment's notice to plunge into battle and not very safe for anyone to be around during downtime. I could see requiring a high STR to physically manage them and a high CHR to maintain control over them (high = 13+), and not allowing more than four.

So I ran my dogs a bit more realistically in my AD&D game. My 11 year old daughter was trying to get her guard dog to go into a dungeon, and just attack and do what she said, and this young pup did not want to do that. She had such a tussle with trying to do CHA checks just so she could fight next round, she's decided she might sell the dog - but we're trying to convince her to use it as a guard dog outside the dungeon and to keep trying to train it.

So mixed results - I was "meh" about giving my daughter fits, and I didn't want make the game difficult for her, so we (other adult players and I) are trying to help her get over the video game training of how animals work.

Never have had someone ask to use dogs as in-dungeon companions. But, it seems an interesting tactic. Lots of good ideas here, and I don't see that training the dog should be all that tough (which of course, complicates it for the DM). My own experience with my own dogs (a siberian husky and a miniature american eskimo (picture a small samoyed)). The eskimo is just a colossal pain in the arse, and can't keep anything but the simplest of commands in her head. The husky on the other hand (and these are both same age, and have gone through the same training), takes commands like a regular little soldier. What's more, other the years the husky has gone stone deaf. So, out of necessity more than anything else, we've converted all her commands to hand signals, which she obeys without hesitation. So, in reality, training the animal I don't think should be all that tough. But getting the animal to bravely go where no dog has gone before...into dragon's den...into an orcish cavern...down an illithid's warren...these may be too much for the poor canine due to the unfamiliar smells (as I think someone else said before). Maybe it's more of a constitution check the animal has to make periodically.