Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:28 pm**

John Stark wrote:This is the question I was raising earlier, and I backed away from that position when Cias reminded us about the note at the end of the Con table that says the Con bonus is added to each hit die.

It does...for a single class character. If a PC has a CON bonus, then he gets it. But while a multiclassed PC has multiple classes, he cannot have more than one different CON bonus, if that applies, because he's only one person with one CON. If holding fighter status allows him to have an extraordinary CON bonus, then that's his CON bonus regardless of his other classes.

Now that I've spent some more time thinking about it, I think I'm moving back to my original position on this, that Con isn't added to every die for a multiclass, but only to the sum of those dice.

Given the rules, you're correct in assuming so.

What we are talking about here is "hit die type." Hit die type for a single class character is a d4, d6, d8, or a d10.

But what is a hit die type for a multiclass character? IMO, its the "sum total of all hit dice appropriate to each class, adjusted by Con, divided by the number of classes." There is no distinction made in the text between how to roll hit points for a 1st level multiclass characters versus a multiclass character that gains xp and levels. It works the same regardless of level IMO.

Thus, when we "adjust for constitution," we are adjusting the overall hit die type, which is essentially different for a multiclass than for a single class, since it involves a formula for each level rather than a simple, single die roll as per a single class character.

No where does it state "roll the die (or dice) appropriate for the one class that has gained a level." It states, "roll the die (or dice) appropriate to each class that the character is professing." Further, step #2 states "total the sum of all dice so rolled." This second step makes no sense whatsoever for any class except multiclass rangers (monks can't multiclass), and then only at 1st level, since its talking about totalling all dice rolled. Only in the case of the 1st level ranger are more than one dice rolled for hit points. Thus, the language of step 2 makes alot more sense if we are talking about rolling mulitple dice for each class every time multiclassed character gains a level in one of his classes.

My approach to multi's is: since it's limited to demi-humans (unless you're playing TETSNBN...shudder, demi-humans have cultures that encourage "multi-tasking," for lack of a better word, in life. Their cultures call for individuals who can fight and cast spells, for example. Human culture, with humans being so prolific and numerous, don't need that sort of multitasking in life.

So, a multi's HD, like you said, is a dividend of his professional abilities.

Thus, I would say the formula for a multiclass character to level up and gain hit points would look like this:

Multiclassed character with 2 classes:

(((class1 HD type) + (class2 HD type)) +Con)/2

Multiclassed character with 3 classes:

(((class1 HD type) + (class2 HD type)) + (class3 HD type) +Con)/2

Now, whether or not this is the most elegant solution, or the "best" solution, is another debate entirely IMO. The question is "what is the RAW" first, and then we move on to questions of what might work better.

Second example should be "/3"...otherwise I agree with you. Multi's were something that came along long after the game system was devised in OD&D, so naturally it won't fit elegantly.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:42 pm**

SemajTheSilent wrote: If holding fighter status allows him to have an extraordinary CON bonus, then that's his CON bonus regardless of his other classes.

I agree with this as well. As I stated up thread, multiclass characters always seem to get the best advantages that all of their respective classes allow. Saves, to hit, abilities, etc. A multiclass fighter who has exceptional (%) strength has that strength at all times.

Second example should be "/3"...otherwise I agree with you.

Oops. That's what I get for using cut & paste without previewing my post, heh.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:10 pm**

John Stark wrote:I agree with this as well. As I stated up thread, multiclass characters always seem to get the best advantages that all of their respective classes allow. Saves, to hit, abilities, etc. A multiclass fighter who has exceptional (%) strength has that strength at all times.

They don't always have the best advantages -- for example, they don't always use the best hit dice.

It really doesn't make no nevermind to me how you play your game, but I've always played that the hit point bonus for Con is applied to each hit die (according to class) before they are divided for the total. I think that is the most logical way to proceed, given that the Con bonus is said to apply to each hit die.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:18 pm**

SemajTheSilent wrote:I have a singular question for those here who think each die rolled is individually adjusted for CON:

PHB page 19 wrote: 2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled and adjust for constitution.
If the individual die are adjusted for CON, as Lord Cias purports, then why does the above statement call for a totalling, and then adjusting for CON? How can you adjust for CON after the dice rolls are totalled?

Read that again, which does it say:

2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled then adjust for constitution.

OR

2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled and adjust for constitution (q.v.).

They are both part of the same step, just because the phrase "adjust for constitution" is written after the phrase "total the sum of all dice" doesn't mean that it is literally done afterwards, that is why it says "and" instead of "then" and then it refers the reader to the section on constution where it says that it applies to each hit die.

What is so hard about this?[/quote]

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:02 pm**

dcs wrote:
John Stark wrote:I agree with this as well. As I stated up thread, multiclass characters always seem to get the best advantages that all of their respective classes allow. Saves, to hit, abilities, etc. A multiclass fighter who has exceptional (%) strength has that strength at all times.
They don't always have the best advantages -- for example, they don't always use the best hit dice.

It really doesn't make no nevermind to me how you play your game, but I've always played that the hit point bonus for Con is applied to each hit die (according to class) before they are divided for the total. I think that is the most logical way to proceed, given that the Con bonus is said to apply to each hit die.

I think multi's, given that they have abilities from more than one class, suffer some penalties in order to keep them from totally dominating a game...or at least that's the gist I've always gotten.

As to the CON bonus applying to each hit die, as stated in the CON section, consider this: a multi-class character has a hit die just like a single class character does. In the multi's case, his hit die is an average of the HDs of his classes. You see a hint of this in B/X D&D with the elf class...it's basically a F/MU and has a d6 HD...the average between the d8 and d4 HDs of both classes. Likewise, in AD&D, the HDs are averaged...you just aren't given a number and told "that's the PC's hit dice." So, the CON bonus does get added to the HD, just as the statement from the CON section states. From that perspective, that falls in line with the rules on page 19.

At least that's the way I see it.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:10 pm**

Lord Cias wrote:They are both part of the same step, just because the phrase "adjust for constitution" is written after the phrase "total the sum of all dice" doesn't mean that it is literally done afterwards, that is why it says "and" instead of "then" and then it refers the reader to the section on constution where it says that it applies to each hit die.

What is so hard about this?

Are you kidding?

Ok, Cias...there's no other basis for factoring in CON bonuses before adding together. The reference to the CON section about adding to HD...well, see my post above...

Given that, it makes sense that you follow the steps as they're given. Think: the meatloaf recipe I use says "mix 1/4 cup of ketchup and 2 teaspoons of sugar and baste the top of the meatloaf." Would I put them on top of the meatloaf and then mix?

Of course not. Now I'm not comparing PCs to meatloaf...that's just an example of syntax. Factoring in multiple CON bonuses for one PC simply makes no sense.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:13 pm**

SemajTheSilent wrote:I think multi's, given that they have abilities from more than one class, suffer some penalties in order to keep them from totally dominating a game...or at least that's the gist I've always gotten.

As to the CON bonus applying to each hit die, as stated in the CON section, consider this: a multi-class character has a hit die just like a single class character does. In the multi's case, his hit die is an average of the HDs of his classes. You see a hint of this in B/X D&D with the elf class...it's basically a F/MU and has a d6 HD...the average between the d8 and d4 HDs of both classes. Likewise, in AD&D, the HDs are averaged...you just aren't given a number and told "that's the PC's hit dice." So, the CON bonus does get added to the HD, just as the statement from the CON section states. From that perspective, that falls in line with the rules on page 19.

That's a fine way to justify how you do it, but that isn't actually what the book says.

Where in the book does it actually say that multi-classed characters suffer some penalties to offset their power? Where does the book state that multi-classed characters are considered to have just one hit die instead of multiple hit dice?

The main question here is simply this, what does the book *actually say.* The book actually says to apply constitution adjustments per hit die. It does NOT say anything about considering multi-classed characters as an exception to this rule or a special case of any sort.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:13 pm**

I think we should settle this by rolling up some multiclass characters and getting someone who hasn't been part of the debate to DM us through a gladitorial arena session. Last character standing gets to claim victory in the debate.

I'll be rolling up my character using RA's original method though, heh.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:28 pm**

Lord Cias wrote:The main question here is simply this, what does the book *actually say.* The book actually says to apply constitution adjustments per hit die. It does NOT say anything about considering multi-classed characters as an exception to this rule or a special case of any sort.

Well, that's the passage in dispute. And that passage does not explicitly say "apply constitution adjustments per hit die." So if we're going to be correcting one another on what the phrase actually says, then lets state what is actually written.

PHB pg. 19 wrote:2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled, and adjust for constitution (q.v.)

This whole section is given in an orderly listing, implying "do this step, then that step, then this step." I think its a fair reading of the text that "adjust for costitution" can be taken to mean "do this" after you "total the sum of all dice rolled," particularly given that the whole point of this foot note is dealing with "hit die types."

Further, the little (q.v.) indicator does not necessarily mean that we are to apply the Con bonus to every hit die, IF we read this passage to mean that a multiclass character uses a formula for its "hit die type" rather than a straight and simple d4, d6, d8, or d10. In other words, if we determine that a multiclass character uses a formula of [((class1 HD + class2 HD) +Con)/2 or 3], as their "hit die type," then we would apply the Con bonus to that hit die type (i.e., to that formula).

See also my point above about bullet point #2 on pg. 19 of the PHB. Does it make sense to talk about totalling up "the sum of all dice rolled" every time a multiclass character levels up? No class gains multiple hit dice when they gain a level beyond 1st. The only time you would "total the sum of all dice rolled" beyond first level is when you are rolling more than one die, and this can only happen if you are in fact rolling more than one die.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:54 pm**

Lord Cias wrote:That's a fine way to justify how you do it, but that isn't actually what the book says.

Where in the book does it actually say that multi-classed characters suffer some penalties to offset their power?

I can think of one example: level limits. So obviously, multis are tailored to provide balance. That's a basic concept of gameplay.

Where does the book state that multi-classed characters are considered to have just one hit die instead of multiple hit dice?

When it directs you to average the HD for each class. Alternatively, show me where it says multis function with more than one HD.

The main question here is simply this, what does the book *actually say.* The book actually says to apply constitution adjustments per hit die. It does NOT say anything about considering multi-classed characters as an exception to this rule or a special case of any sort.

The book is actually rather vague on the subject, which is why this thread was created. It's not obvious. You have to examine the mechanics and reason out an answer. Go back to what I said before about CON bonuses. While HPs are basically a measure of the PCs skill in class as well as physical points, the CON bonus is exactly that: a bonus for high stamina. Fighter classes have a potential for higher CON bonuses due to their rigorous training. If you have a multi-class with a fighter in the mix...whose stamina has been honed to take more punishment, thenit makes no sense to have differing CON bonuses since the bonus is due to stamina.

Unfortunately, like so many other circumstances, simply saying "what does the book say" opens up a quandry because the wording is vague. EGG tomorrow may chime in and agree with you...and that's cool with me. But I don't see your argument as being worthy because it doesn't fit the underlying mechanics.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:21 pm**

Here's another interesting thing about interpreting this passage. After the four steps that are given for determining multiclass HPs, the PHB says this:

PHB pg. 19 wrote:Note that when multi-classed characters are no longer able to progress in any given class, they no longer gain the hit dice for that class.

Now why would this need to be stated if multiclass characters gain only the hit die relevant to each class when that class gains a level? It should be obvious that a multiclassed character would no longer gain HD from a class that is maxed out if we only roll the hit die that the class would normally get.

However, if HD are determined for multiclass characters as RA originally described them (i.e., via a formula wherein hit dice for each class is rolled every time any one of the classes gains a level), this final note makes perfect sense. In other words, this statement at the end of the check list would not be needed if we weren't using the given formula of averaging class hit dice each time a class gains a level. Its only when that formula is being used throughout the multiclassed character's career that we would need this statement to clarify what we should do once a class has maxed out.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:24 pm**

Stormcrow wrote:Eh? What's all the commotion about? Are you being confused by the word professing?

In a word, yes. I am.

I was taking it to mean the classes in which the character is participating in, whether he was gaining a level in it at the time or not.

You are taking it to mean the class (or classes) in which the character is currently gaining a new level in.

My dictionary say "to follow one's calling or profession," which I'd say supports my view. However, like I said before, I like the results of the other interpretation better...

Looking at the multi-classed characters in the Rogues Gallery, I'd say they're probably using the method stated by SC, Cias, and Foster.

I'm going to take a quick look at some Sage Advice columns to see if I see any more evidence. (Because I'm anal.)

R.A.

Posted: **Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:33 pm**

Another point to consider. The PHB on page 32 under the heading The Multi-Classed Character states this:

PHB pg. 32 wrote:Fighter/Magic-user: Obviously, this combination allows excellent armor protection, the use of weaponry, and spells. Hit points are good on the average (5.5 + 2.5 = 8/2 = 4 hit points per double-classed level). Elves and half-elves may be fighter/magic-users.

(emphasis added, and decimals used instead of fractions)

This to me is a nice bit of evidence that multiclass hit points are supposed to be averaged from each of the class hit dice every level gained. Notice how hit points are figured here per double class level for a F/MU.

I think this confirms that the formula of [((class1 HD) + (class2 HD) + Con) divided 2 or 3 (i.e., by number of classes)] is on track, and not the single HD per class approach that others are espousing.

Posted: **Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:39 am**

John Stark wrote:This to me is a nice bit of evidence that multiclass hit points are supposed to be averaged from each of the class hit dice every level gained. Notice how hit points are figured here per double class level for a F/MU.

That's just an average. In general, an F/MU won't progress in both of his classes simultaneously. I would agree with you if the progression were simultaneous, but it isn't.

What happens when the character in question gains a level in the Fighter class, but not in the Magic-user class? The answer to that question, I submit, is the key to interpreting how hit points are generated at first level.

Posted: **Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:16 am**

My view of BTB:
A half-elf cleric/fighter/magic-user at 1st level with an 18 Con:
d8+2 + d10+4 + d4+2/3
And afterwards:
d8+2/3 when the cleric class XP requirements are met.
d10+4/3 when the fighter class XP requirements are met.
d4+2/3 when the magic-user class XP requirements are met.
Until the cleric ability is maxed out. Then
d10+4/2 when the fighter class advances
d4+2/2 when the magic-user class advanced.
The combo can reach 8th level in the fighte and magic-user classes by the PH charts, but if one class could advance higher than the other, it would just be d10+4 or d4+2 with no division, depending on what class could advance.

Scott

Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Multi-class hit points - once and for all...