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Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:13 pm
by Lord Cias
rogatny wrote:I think you goofed here. You divided by three instead of two... This ranger-cleric should have 12 hp.
Thanks for catching that, I've fixed it above.
Your c/r now has 24 hp. Mine would have 35 hp.

A single class cleric with 6,002 xp would be 4th level and have about 20 hp. A single class ranger with 6,002 xp would be 3rd level and have about 38 hit points.
Interesting. Your version puts the h.p. at just under normal for a single classed ranger with the same x.p. while mine is just a little above normal for a single classed cleric with the same x.p. Of course I may have messed up my example above by not going with perfectly average rolls, which I guess is what is needed to draw exact conclusions.

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:23 pm
by John Stark
RA, after rereading that section a few times, I think your orginal method makes the most sense (edit: of the text wording as it is written, I should say)

Let's read that entire note:
PHB pg. 19 wrote:Hit Dice Type shows the type of die to be rolled by a character of the appropriate class at each level of experience (q.v.) he or she has gained so as to determine how many hit points (q.v.) the character has. Multiclassed characters determine their hit points as fallows:

1. Roll the hit die (or dice) appropriate to each class the character is
professing.

2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled, and adjust for constitution (q.v.).

3. Divide the total by the character's classes (two or three), dropping
fractions under %, rounding fractions of % or greater upwards to the
nextwhale number.

4. The number derived (quotient) is the number of hit points the
multi-classed character gains with the rise in that experience level.

Note that when multi-classed characters are no longer able to progress in
any given class, they no longer gain the hit dice for that class.
Previous to the bit about multiclass characters, this note states, "Hit Dice Type shows the type of die to be rolled by a character of the appropriate class at each level of experience..."

That seems to set the context for the rest of the note that deals with multiclass hit points each level. In other words, "at each level of experience" do such and so.

The PHB never says to change the way you do things in terms of HP for a multiclass beyond level one. Also, doing it the way you originally proposed would make more sense of the whole "Total the sum of all dice so rolled, and adjust for constitution" line IMO.

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:26 pm
by Lord Cias
So John, how would you calculate the h.p. for a 1st level cleric/ranger with a con of 18?

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:40 pm
by rogatny
Lord Cias wrote:Interesting. Your version puts the h.p. at just under normal for a single classed ranger with the same x.p. while mine is just a little above normal for a single classed cleric with the same x.p. Of course I may have messed up my example above by not going with perfectly average rolls, which I guess is what is needed to draw exact conclusions.
Let's take a more standard example. Let say it's an elvish fighter/thief who is average in every way (no Con bonus, no xp bonus)...

d6s average 3.5 per roll and d10s average 5.5 per roll.

At level 1/1, he'll have 4.5 hp. The average thief will have 3.5 and the average fighter will have 5.5

At level 1/2, he has 2,502 xp:
Your version: + 1.75 = 6.25
My version: + 4.5 = 9
3rd lvl thief = 10.5
2nd lvl fighter = 11

At level 2/2, he has 4,002 xp:
Your version: + 2.75 = 9
My version: + 4.5 = 13.5
3rd level thief = 10.5
3rd level fighter = 16.5

At level 2/3, he has 5,002 xp:
Your version: +1.75 = 10.75
My version: +4.5 = 18
4th level thief = 14
3rd level fighter = 16.5

At level 3/3, he has 8,002 xp:
Your version: +2.75 = 13.5
My version: +4.5 = 22.5
4th level thief = 14
4th level fighter = 22

At level 3/4, he has 10,002 xp:
Your version: +1.75 = 15.25
My version: +4.5 = 27
5th level thief = 17.5
4th level fighter = 22

At level 4/4, he has 16,002 xp:
Your version: +2.75 = 18
My version: +4.5 = 31.5
5th level thief = 17.5
4th level fighter = 22

At level 4/5, he has 20,002 xp:
Your version: +1.75 = 19.75
My version: +4.5 = 36
6th level thief = 21
5th level fighter = 27.5

At level 5/5, he has 36,002 xp:
Your version: +2.75 = 22.5
My version: +4.5 = 40.5
6th level thief = 21
6th level fighter = 33

This seems to confirm what I suspected, that my way of doing it gave way too many hit points to multi-classed characters. Your way of doing it puts the multi-class character right about on pace with his lesser hit point class.

The next question is what happens when the character can no longer proceed in a class. (Note: that 5th level is where an elf would normally no longer advance as a fighter.) I know that xp is still divided between the two classes. But what about hp? My old way of doing it was to give the full HD roll, and I believe that should be the way it's done, since the xp progression of the character is essentially half of what the single class characer's is.

R.A.

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:40 pm
by John Stark
Lord Cias wrote:So John, how would you calculate the h.p. for a 1st level cleric/ranger with a con of 18?
Depends on how we define "adjust for constitution," although given the note at the bottom of the Con table regarding Hit Dice I'd say that means adding Con to each hit die. I'll use that method. Of course, the question then become "which Con bonus, the fighter one or the cleric one?" I'll do both:

Fighter Con bonus for each class:

((C= d8+4Con) +(R= d8+4Con) +(d8+4Con))= 3-24 +12/2

Normal Con bonus for each class:

((C= d8+2Con) +(R= d8+4Con) +(d8+4Con))= 3-24 +10/2

Personally, I'd probably be inclined to use the highest Con bonus possible for each class, simply because multiclasses always seem to get the best of whatever classes they have (i.e., saves, attacks, etc.). Surely a multiclass character is going to have his exceptional fighter strength at all times, right?

After level one, I'd use the following formula:

Ranger level: ((R= d8 +4Con) + (C= d8 +4Con) = 2-16 +8/2

Cleric level: ((C= d8 +4Con) + (R= d8 +4Con) = 2-16 +8/2

Or, if we use max Con bonus by class:

Ranger level: ((R= d8 +4Con) + (C= d8 +2Con) = 2-16 +6/2

Cleric level: ((C= d8 +2Con) + (R= d8 +4Con) = 2-16 +6/2

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:43 pm
by John Stark
rogatny wrote:Let's take a more standard example. Let say it's an elvish fighter/thief who is average in every way (no Con bonus, no xp bonus)...
Heh, stick to one example will ya? :wink:

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:46 pm
by rogatny
John Stark wrote:RA, after rereading that section a few times, I think your orginal method makes the most sense.

Let's read that entire note:
PHB pg. 19 wrote:Hit Dice Type shows the type of die to be rolled by a character of the appropriate class at each level of experience (q.v.) he or she has gained so as to determine how many hit points (q.v.) the character has. Multiclassed characters determine their hit points as fallows:

1. Roll the hit die (or dice) appropriate to each class the character is
professing.

2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled, and adjust for constitution (q.v.).

3. Divide the total by the character's classes (two or three), dropping
fractions under %, rounding fractions of % or greater upwards to the
nextwhale number.

4. The number derived (quotient) is the number of hit points the
multi-classed character gains with the rise in that experience level.

Note that when multi-classed characters are no longer able to progress in
any given class, they no longer gain the hit dice for that class.
Previous to the bit about multiclass characters, this note states, "Hit Dice Type shows the type of die to be rolled by a character of the appropriate class at each level of experience..."

That seems to set the context for the rest of the note that deals with multiclass hit points each level. In other words, "at each level of experience" do such and so.

The PHB never says to change the way you do things in terms of HP for a multiclass beyond level one. Also, doing it the way you originally proposed would make more sense of the whole "Total the sum of all dice so rolled, and adjust for constitution" line IMO.
Yes, textually, I think that my original interpretation is right. See #1, where you roll the dice for each class that the character is "professing", not for for the class in which the level is gained. If #1 used just a little bit different wording, I could agree with Cias and Foster.

This is not to say that Cias and Foster don't have a better way of doing it. Like my post above says, I think that doing it the way that I was results in multi-class characters getting way too many hp.

Was there any Sage Advice on this at some point? (Not that Sage Advice holds a lot of water for me...)

R.A.

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:51 pm
by John Stark
rogatny wrote:Yes, textually, I think that my original interpretation is right. See #1, where you roll the dice for each class that the character is "professing", for for the class in which the level is gained. If #1 used just a little bit different wording, I could agree with Cias and Foster.

This is not to say that Cias and Foster don't have a better way of doing it. Like my post above says, I think that doing it the way that I was results in multi-class characters getting way too many hp.

Was there any Sage Advice on this at some point? (Not that Sage Advice holds a lot of water for me...)
Well, here's a thought. Since all multiclass characters have level limits (except for thieves), could this have been a way for multiclasses to "hang in there" in terms of hit points and higher level adventures, given that they will stop progressing in HP while single classed characters continue to gain hit dice, +X HP beyond level 9, and/or Con bonuses?

In other words, do higher hit points mean that multiclasses will still be viable in high level campaigns even though they've stopped advancing while their single classed fellows continue to gain in power? And that wouldn't be just HP that the single class gains either. We're talking saves, to hit, spells, class abilities, and so on...

EDIT: And those higher multiclass HP would be an excellent foil against the whole "mutliclass level limits are unfair" meme.

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:54 pm
by T. Foster
rogatny wrote:The next question is what happens when the character can no longer proceed in a class. (Note: that 5th level is where an elf would normally no longer advance as a fighter.) I know that xp is still divided between the two classes. But what about hp? My old way of doing it was to give the full HD roll, and I believe that should be the way it's done, since the xp progression of the character is essentially half of what the single class characer's is.
I concur with this. When a multiclassed character is no longer able to advance in one or more of his classes hit dice for the remaining classes are no longer divided by that class -- so an elf f/m-u/t with average stats gets 1d10/3 hp per fighter level up to 5, 1d4/3 hp per m-u level up to 5 and 1d4/2 hp per m-u level 6-9, and 1d6/3 hp per thief level 1-5, 1d6/2 hp per thief level 6-9, 1d6 hp for thief level 10, and +2 (or however many it is) hp per thief level thereafter. This is never stated in the 1E PH or DMG, but is (IMO) common sense, and I believe was confirmed by Sage Advice or Gygax Q&A or Frank Mentzer or some other sort of "authoritatiev by not official" source.

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:04 pm
by rogatny
John Stark wrote:Well, here's a thought. Since all multiclass characters have level limits (except for thieves), could this have been a way for multiclasses to "hang in there" in terms of hit points and higher level adventures, given that they will stop progressing in HP while single classed characters continue to gain hit dice, +X HP beyond level 9, and/or Con bonuses?

In other words, do higher hit points mean that multiclasses will still be viable in high level campaigns even though they've stopped advancing while their single classed fellows continue to gain in power? And that wouldn't be just HP that the single class gains either. We're talking saves, to hit, spells, class abilities, and so on...

EDIT: And those higher multiclass HP would be an excellent foil against the whole "mutliclass level limits are unfair" meme.
That is a thought...

Once our elvish f/t caps out on d6 rolls at 10th level thief, he'll have 320,002 xp. Getting 3.5 hp per level for 5 levels gives him about 58 hit points under my way of doing things. For every 440,000 xp from here on, he gets 2 more.

At 320,002 xp, a single class thief is 11th level and will have about 37 hp. For every 220,000 xp from here on he gets 2 more.

At 320,002 xp, a single class fighter is 9th level and will have about 45 hp. For every 250,000 xp from here on he gets 3 more.

So the fighter is going to have to gain 6 more levels for it to even out.

So in the case of the multi-classed thief, I just don't think it works out. It would probably look better when both classes have level limits. A f/m-u, for example, would have "too many" hit points when he reaches his limits, but would eventually come back to the pack as the rest of the party continues to gain levels.

The main thing this example proves to me is that it simply doesn't make much sense, btb,and from a strictly gamist perspective, to play demi-humans as anything other than multi-classed thieves.

R.A.

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:19 pm
by Lord Cias
Man, the one time I don't have my books with me a discussion like this pops up . . .

Could somebody please quote the appropriate passages from the PHB?

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:04 pm
by Stormcrow
Eh? What's all the commotion about? Are you being confused by the word professing?

A half-elf fighter/magic-user/thief has 60,003 XP (20,001/20,001/20,001 XP, level 5/4/6) and an 18 constitution. Determine his hit points as per the Players Handbook p. 19 as follows:
  1. Roll the hit die (or dice) appropriate to each class the character is professing.
    5d10, 4d4, 6d6.
  2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled, and adjust for constitution
    Each of the fighter's hit dice is adjusted by +4, each of the magic-user's and thief's hit dice are adjusted by +2:
    5d10 + 20 + 4d4 + 8 + 6d6 + 12 = 5d10 + 4d4 + 6d6 + 40
  3. Divide the total by the character's classes (two or three), dropping fractions under ½, rounding fractions ½ or greater upwards to the next whole number.
    (5d10 + 4d4 + 6d6 + 40) ÷ 3.
  4. The number derived (quotient) is the number of hit points the multi-classed character gains with the rise in experience level.
    If we assume exactly average rolls, the character has 33 hit points: (5×5.5 + 4×2.5 + 6×3.5 + 40) ÷ 3= 32.833…
The half-elf now gains 9,000 XP adventuring, distributed as 23,001/23,001/23,001. The character trains for another magic-user level. His hit points are determined as follows:
  1. Roll the hit die (or dice) appropriate to each class the character is professing.
    The character is only training in magic-user. 1d4.
  2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled, and adjust for constitution
    There's only one hit die to adjust for constitution, and it's for the magic-user. 1d4 + 2
  3. Divide the total by the character's classes (two or three), dropping fractions under ½, rounding fractions ½ or greater upwards to the next whole number.
    The character still has three classes, of course!
    (1d4 + 2) ÷ 3
  4. The number derived (quotient) is the number of hit points the multi-classed character gains with the rise in experience level.
    Another average roll: (2.5 + 2) ÷ 3 = 1.5 ≈ 2 hit points gained
The character now has 35 hit points.

David
Stardate 6666.5

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:24 pm
by JCBoney
I have a singular question for those here who think each die rolled is individually adjusted for CON:
PHB page 19 wrote: 2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled and adjust for constitution.
If the individual die are adjusted for CON, as Lord Cias purports, then why does the above statement call for a totalling, and then adjusting for CON? How can you adjust for CON after the dice rolls are totalled?

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:04 pm
by John Stark
SemajTheSilent wrote:I have a singular question for those here who think each die rolled is individually adjusted for CON:
PHB page 19 wrote: 2. Total the sum of all dice so rolled and adjust for constitution.
If the individual die are adjusted for CON, as Lord Cias purports, then why does the above statement call for a totalling, and then adjusting for CON? How can you adjust for CON after the dice rolls are totalled?
This is the question I was raising earlier, and I backed away from that position when Cias reminded us about the note at the end of the Con table that says the Con bonus is added to each hit die.

Now that I've spent some more time thinking about it, I think I'm moving back to my original position on this, that Con isn't added to every die for a multiclass, but only to the sum of those dice.

What we are talking about here is "hit die type." Hit die type for a single class character is a d4, d6, d8, or a d10.

But what is a hit die type for a multiclass character? IMO, its the "sum total of all hit dice appropriate to each class, adjusted by Con, divided by the number of classes." There is no distinction made in the text between how to roll hit points for a 1st level multiclass characters versus a multiclass character that gains xp and levels. It works the same regardless of level IMO.

Thus, when we "adjust for constitution," we are adjusting the overall hit die type, which is essentially different for a multiclass than for a single class, since it involves a formula for each level rather than a simple, single die roll as per a single class character.

No where does it state "roll the die (or dice) appropriate for the one class that has gained a level." It states, "roll the die (or dice) appropriate to each class that the character is professing." Further, step #2 states "total the sum of all dice so rolled." This second step makes no sense whatsoever for any class except multiclass rangers (monks can't multiclass), and then only at 1st level, since its talking about totalling all dice rolled. Only in the case of the 1st level ranger are more than one dice rolled for hit points. Thus, the language of step 2 makes alot more sense if we are talking about rolling mulitple dice for each class every time multiclassed character gains a level in one of his classes.

Thus, I would say the formula for a multiclass character to level up and gain hit points would look like this:

Multiclassed character with 2 classes:

(((class1 HD type) + (class2 HD type)) +Con)/2

Multiclassed character with 3 classes:

(((class1 HD type) + (class2 HD type)) + (class3 HD type) +Con)/3

Now, whether or not this is the most elegant solution, or the "best" solution, is another debate entirely IMO. The question is "what is the RAW" first, and then we move on to questions of what might work better.

EDIT: Fixed my typo.

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:18 pm
by John Stark
rogatny wrote:
That is a thought...

Once our elvish f/t caps out on d6 rolls at 10th level thief, he'll have 320,002 xp. Getting 3.5 hp per level for 5 levels gives him about 58 hit points under my way of doing things. For every 440,000 xp from here on, he gets 2 more.

At 320,002 xp, a single class thief is 11th level and will have about 37 hp. For every 220,000 xp from here on he gets 2 more.

At 320,002 xp, a single class fighter is 9th level and will have about 45 hp. For every 250,000 xp from here on he gets 3 more.

So the fighter is going to have to gain 6 more levels for it to even out.

So in the case of the multi-classed thief, I just don't think it works out. It would probably look better when both classes have level limits. A f/m-u, for example, would have "too many" hit points when he reaches his limits, but would eventually come back to the pack as the rest of the party continues to gain levels.

The main thing this example proves to me is that it simply doesn't make much sense, btb,and from a strictly gamist perspective, to play demi-humans as anything other than multi-classed thieves.
Even with the ability of multiclass thieve to keep gaining levels, I think that is offset by the fact that once the multiclassed character has maxed one of his classes, they are essentially stuck needing twice the amount of XP a single classed thief needs to gain levels. The situation is even worse for the thief with three classes, and particularly after both of his other classes have maxed out, as XP continues to be divided by 3 classes. Thus, the theif with 3 classes is going to need well over twice the amount of XP to gain a new level, while the single class thief will have gained 2-3 levels.