Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Returning to the non surprised gnome illusionist and the lizardman shaman casting a sleep spell during two surprise segments. Can the gnome act to stop the shaman? Does the gnome have to wait for the surprise segments to end before he can roll intiative?
If the gnome had been surprised then regular surprise rules apply.

I would handle the non surprised gnome as follows: The gnome, like the lizardmen, is not surprised. The shaman is also attacking the gnome as his sleep spell will take him out. I would rule that when the non surprised gnome is being attacked that a "surprise round" lasting 4 segments is created. The 4 segments comes from the maximum amount of surprise segments a PC could have if invisible and silent. The surprised PCs action during the surprise round is simply being surprised and they do nothing and do not roll. The lizardmen can begin an attack on the surprised PCs on segment 1 but a 1d4 will be rolled between the gnome and lizardmen if the gnome is attacked. If the lizardmen roll a 1 (which represents when the gnome can act) the gnome can act and attack the shaman caster in hopes of disrupting the spell. This gives the gnome a chance to defend himself when attacked during a surprise round. After the surprise round regular initiative is rolled.

If the gnome was not being attacked I would allow the normal surprise rules to apply and then roll initiative after the surprise segments were over.

Axe---with your example of PCs waiting in ambush with arrows at the ready and bolts at the ready I might simply give the group a higher surprise chance.

The more I think about it, the more I think the most the illusionist could do is run for six seconds (get out of the area of effect). I think he'd know he was under the effect of a spell (maybe like the feeling you get when lightning is about to hit you) its basically a simo situation both guys acting on segment 1. In that amount of time (six seconds) he could probably get out of range of most spells (if he books it and he heads in the correct direction).

The way I think I'd handle a shaman casting sleep on the PC party (illusionist included) would be "OK Evans gnome illusionist, you see the lizardman casting something, you feel a charge in the air so your aware your under its area of effect, do you want to try and book it out of the area of effect (before the casting is complete) or just stay put"? Hopefully the illusionist will be smart enough to book it post haste (hopefully back toward the entrance, and perhaps out of the dungeon).

I wouldn't allow the illusionist to interrupt the spell casting (throw a dagger etc.) as I don't think the cancellation due to high dex, allows for disrupting the other sides attack. It sort of reminds me of the optional rule of bleeding out to -10, and that rest a week rule. Kind of a bone Gygax is throwing you to keep you alive for your dex (and chances are if your dex is super high your a low HD guy anyway (but not necessarily at a very good advantage, you did loose the role after all).

Good point Axe as to the general idea that the surprised PCs should be attacked and non surprised PC cannot stop it. I generally agree with that but wanted to address the situation where a non surprised PC is being affected by the spell attack on the surprised PCs. In effect the surprise segments are being used against a non surprised PC who cannot act during the surprise segments. My earlier post was an attempt to answer this situation. You will have a player saying "not fair", why am I penalized when I am not surprised and about to be killed by a spell.

A DM could do as you suggest, flee the area etc but there may be times when the option is not there and the PC will be caught in the spell area effect. Should a non surprised PC be penalized when they never had a chance to roll initiative? One could simply rule too bad the surprised PCs create this situation and the other members of the party have to deal with it. This would simplify things. I am not aware of an official explanation of how to handle this situation.

How would you handle it if it happened in reverse (the party surprises 4 lizardmen, but a 5th, a lizardman shaman, is too fast and is not surprised):

I would tell the players "you can tell 4 are surprised, but the 5th (possibly distinguishable as a shaman or special by stuff he's wearing etc.) is not. MU says "I want to sleep everyone". DM: "You can't attack the shaman in any way, if you include him (along with the others) you give up your surprise, and thus have to wait till normal initiative to see who goes first, otherwise you can target the surprised lizardmen (as long as it doesn't hit the shaman)". If the MU would rather not waste his spell, he can spend the 2 surprise segments doing something else like throwing daggers (or casting another spell).

So, just the one shaman being in the middle of this group could screw up any group attacks? that seems correct...but....

On second thought maybe I'm wrong. What if, instead of a spell being cast, its a large net being thrown on the party from a high place above (say an ogre is waiting high up on a wall with a large cast net and the party of 3 PCs (close to one another) is all within its range, surprise is won against the party for 2 segments). In this case the dungeon/module description instructs the DM: "treat the net as a normal weapon". The ogre could, on his first segment, throw the net rolling a "to hit" (capturing everyone possibly) and the next segment he could use another missile, or climb or jump down.

If one of these three guys has a high enough dex to avoid surprise, I would still allow the net attack on the two guys with normal dex, but would allow the guy with high dex to avoid the net by running out of the way or flattening up against the wall (perhaps getting a big bonus to his save).

So maybe allowing the PC to sleep everyone in the group is correct (Despite one lizardman avoiding surprise due to high dex). If he can get out of the area, fine, if not (there's no place to run) he's effected.

Even if you rolled a special initiative between the MU casting sleep versus the high dex lizardman, he still couldn't stop the spell from going off (because both would be attacking on the same segment, just as if it were normal initiative and both sides rolled a 1, its simo).

If a non-surprised member of a surprised party is being targeted by a spell you have to allow some sort of initiative roll to determine whether they can be affected - the only questions are whether that counts as part of the 1st round or a separate sub-round, and whether surprise being foiled with respect to the unsurprised individual also foils it for the entire group. I go back and forth on the former; on the latter I say yes: if a character is aiming a spell at a mixed group of surprised and unsurprised targets, the latter determine when the spell is cast, and the "free attack" of surprise on the others is foiled for the caster. It's not foiled for the caster's entire side - others in his or her group could still attack the surprised party-members with missiles or melee or individually-directed spells, but if they're targeting an unsurprised target (or a group including such an individual) they're giving up their advantage and proceed to normal initiative (however you choose to determine that ).

[And the DM doesn't need to tell the players that. If they've surprised 4 lizard men but the 5th (shaman) has a high Dex and isn't surprised, all the DM should say is that 4 of them are standing motionless but the 5th seems to be active/aware, and then it's up to the players to make the decision whether to engage the active one or press their advantage on the surprised ones - the DM doesn't need to (and IMO shouldn't) tell them in advance how he or she is going to rule]

Foster--are you saying that if a spell attack on a group with surprised PCs and a non surprised PC as long as the non surprised PC is affected then the hostile caster has given up his right to attack the surprised PCs and will have to wait to roll initiative? Also if the hostile caster has given up his surprise attack yo are saying the other hostile lizardmen can still attack the surprised PCs?

I could swear I saw somewhere ( and bringing this up as I do not think it is contained in any of the core books but not sure) that a ranger's ability to avoid surprise can be transferred to the entire party. I dont think that is in any of the core rule books but if it was it might shed light on this.

DMG, pg 61 wrote:Surprise is determined by rolling a six-sided die for each party concerned, modifying the result by using the most favorable member of the party concerned, i.e. a ranger, surprised only on a roll of 1, will represent the whole of a group of other character types. Note, however, the effect of dexterity as detailed below. The same holds for mixed types of monsters. If surprise is indicated for both parties concerned, the party which has lesser surprise subtracts its result from the result of the greater to find the number of segments the latter are inactive. Nonetheless, it is possible for both parties to be surprised equally- with surprise thus having no effect.

I was in the books for the net question

rredmond wrote:

DMG, pg 61 wrote:Surprise is determined by rolling a six-sided die for each party concerned, modifying the result by using the most favorable member of the party concerned, i.e. a ranger, surprised only on a roll of 1, will represent the whole of a group of other character types. Note, however, the effect of dexterity as detailed below. The same holds for mixed types of monsters. If surprise is indicated for both parties concerned, the party which has lesser surprise subtracts its result from the result of the greater to find the number of segments the latter are inactive. Nonetheless, it is possible for both parties to be surprised equally- with surprise thus having no effect.

I was in the books for the net question

Thanks rredmond. Does this mean (as it appears to in my opinion) that as long as a group of PCs are close enough together the most favorable PC as pertains to surprise (ie high dex, monk, etc.) will represent the entire group? So in Axe Mental's example with the gnome the surprise does not exist for the entire group due to the gnome's high dexterity and therefore normal initiative is rolled?

The DMG is clear that surprise mitigation from high Dex applies only to the individual and not to the entire group, so in the event of actions directed at individuals that should still hold (as in the DMG combat example - melee attacks can be made and spells targeted at the surprised individuals, just not at the high-Dex character). But in the case of something (an area-effect spell, but also something like the net-trap Axe described) targeted at a mixed group of surprised and non-surprised characters, I think it makes most sense (and is fairest) to treat the entire group as the least-surprised character, even though that's an exception to the general rule.

I think I'd be more inclined to narrate some individual quirk of escape for a non-surprised person than to extend to the group. If such an escape were possible - an 18 dex isn't going to get you out of the AOE of a sleep spell centered on you.

It's mainly to negate individual surprise attacks via weapon that would otherwise fall on the character if having a dex of 9; any other situation is DM fiat because the variables shoot out over the moon.

I like the logic behind the ranger transferring reduced chance of being surprised to the group (via a warning that something is amiss) its very Strider. It really defines the class as what it is more then just about anything else. Almost like a "6th sense" (probably more a combination of training, natural ability and experience in the wild, perhaps also an access to a heightened animal sense that still lingers in the DNA as it were.


I wouldn't give the highest dex bonus to the group in the case of a net being dropped or thrown (its not like the guy can warn them "something isn't right" the way a ranger can picking up on cues and "energy" or whatever the hell it is. Its just lightning fast reflexes at the last second. If the guy who is not surprised (due to high dex) is stuck in the middle of a group, and can't physically (due to bodies in the way) get out of the way of the net being thrown, I'd rule the surprise is lost and go to initiative (not because the high dex guy warned anyone, but because its just the rules). But if the high dex guy can squeeze out of the group and get clear of the falling/thrown net, I'd allow him to do that (or at least get a hefty save bonus) and keep the surprise for the rest of the group. In other words, I'd only negate surprise if I absolutely had to (as its typical for a group of 5 to 8 PCs to have one in the middle with high dex, either an MU or a thief, and I don't think its meant to screw up surprise in the cases of group attacks (which will be just about every encounter with an evil spell caster using an area effect spell). Also, its intruding into one of the main reasons to include a ranger in the group (to help minimize the surprise risk, due to his affinity with what is normal in the wild places, apparently something very "human" as elves etc. don't get this ability to warn the group, at least not as far as I know).

EOTB wrote:I think I'd be more inclined to narrate some individual quirk of escape for a non-surprised person than to extend to the group. If such an escape were possible - an 18 dex isn't going to get you out of the AOE of a sleep spell centered on you.

It's mainly to negate individual surprise attacks via weapon that would otherwise fall on the character if having a dex of 9; any other situation is DM fiat because the variables shoot out over the moon.

It might be that this is literally a single unique case (that Sleep is an area of effect spell with no saving throw and a 1 segment casting time). Alas, since Sleep is almost certainly the most commonly used 1st level spell, it's a unique case that's fairly likely to come up in actual play - maybe even in the very first session - and therefore probably worth at least a bit more thought than your typical white-room hypothetical pile or corner-case rules.

The issue is that, regardless of how we handle the specifics of initiative, we're all pretty much in agreement that under normal circumstances an initiative roll gives the winning side/individual a chance to interrupt (or otherwise counter - get out of the range/AOE of, etc.) even a 1-segment spell. So that same consideration needs to be given (at least IMO) to an individually-unsurprised character that's part of a group of otherwise-surprised characters. It's just a matter of deciding what the best and fairest way to accomplish that is.

There may be better ways to do it, but:

I'd simply tell the unsurprised character that they hear chanting - what do you do?

If the high-dex PC says something like "sprint away from the group" then I'd compare movement over the casting time to the AOE and the center of the caster's (me) chosen center of AOE.

Or he may charge/close with the caster, if there is a path and the distance is within a single segment's movement at the rate specified

But outside of that? Not much. Unsurprised people are slept all the time.

I’d say no. At least not based on the rules related to initiative EGG confirmed/described at DF. If you go first and hit the MU about to cast MM (as long as he doesn’t go down) he can cast it when it’s his turn (he only looses a spell if hit while actively casting). If hit simo it still goes off if it’s 1 segment casting time.

Axe, you really need to read the combat section in the DMG. This is like someone saying "I don't think fighters can use swords - prove me wrong"