Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:45 pm**

and also:

Surprise, already covered heretofore, obviates
the need for initiative checks, as the surprising party has complete
freedom of action for a time. However, surprise eventually wanes, and
then, just as in other circumstances, the relative weight of action must be
determined.

I'm reading that as "when surprise is over, initiative is rolled". That wouldn't be necessary if PCs simply had initiative for the round because surprise segments were simply the first part of a round.

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:51 pm**

In combination with "surprise gives initiative to the non- or less-surprised party," that could also be interpreted as saying "if there was surprise, the non- or less-surprised party has initiative in the initial round. After that, initiative is diced for as normal."

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:51 pm**

A large spider has surprised her. As she went to examine the refuse
it dropped from its web. It landed on her back and bit her. Before you
can take any action, she must make a saving throw with + 2 on her
die, of course, and then she and the spider must dice for initiative
and fight a round of combat. After that the rest can try to do something.”

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:08 pm**

Yeah, I figured that example would come up. FWIW (not much), I consider the various combat examples from the DMG as useful, but secondary sources because of the various inconsistencies. I think the examples have the same issue as the rules, themselves (i.e., presenting examples based on various versions and interpretations of rules that may have been in flux). Surprise and initiative aren't clearly nailed down in the 1e rule books. It's ultimately up to the DM to decide how it works in his or her game.

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:24 pm**

FWIW I've always played with surprise segments being additional to rather than part of the first round, just like in the combat examples, and everyone I've played with (those who used multi-segment surprise at all) has done the same, so even if that wasn't the original intent the weight of many decades of practice is very heavy in its direction. However, if there was an intent that surprise is part of the first combat round a la Eldritch Wizardry, even if it was quickly forgotten (perhaps even literally as the books were being written), it might help resolve some of the anomalies that have been brought up in this thread, which is why I mentioned it.

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:09 pm**

T. Foster wrote:...if there was an intent that surprise is part of the first combat round a la Eldritch Wizardry, even if it was quickly forgotten (perhaps even literally as the books were being written), it might help resolve some of the anomalies that have been brought up in this thread, which is why I mentioned it.

It works well with the approach I use.

Posted: **Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:34 pm**

One more thing: while I know speculating about editing errors in a BTB rules discussion is highly frowned upon, while looking at the DMG combat example just now it stood out to me that if we take party A's actions in round one and move them to round two a couple of things make a little better sense.

As the example reads in the printed text:

Party A wins 2 segments of surprise:
Party A acts in surprise segment 1 (Arlanni shoots at Blastum, Aggro hits Balto, Arkayn casts Command on Gutboy Barrelhouse, Abner casts Magic Missile and hits Gutboy Barrelhouse)
Party A acts in surprise segment 2 (Arlanni switches weapons, Aggro loses his action (due to Balto's high Dex), Arkayn switches weapons, Abner prepares a scroll)

Round one - Party B wins initiative:
Party B acts (Balto attacks Aggro, Gutboy Barrelhouse and Barjin hit Arkayn, Blastum casts Shocking Grasp and kills Arlanni)
Party A acts (Aggro hits and kills Balto, Arkayn attacks Gutboy Barrelhouse, Abner casts Web, catching Gutboy, Barjin, Blastum, and Arkayn - combat ends)

However, if we change it to:

Round one - Party A wins 2 segments of surprise:
Party A acts in surprise segment 1 (Arlanni shoots at Blastum, Aggro hits Balto, Arkayn casts Command on Gutboy Barrelhouse, Abner casts Magic Missile and hits Gutboy Barrelhouse)
Party A acts in surprise segment 2 (Arlanni switches weapons, Aggro loses his action (due to Balto's high Dex), Arkayn switches weapons, Abner prepares a scroll)
Party B acts (Balto attacks Aggro, Gutboy Barrelhouse and Barjin hit Arkayn, Blastum casts Shocking Grasp and kills Arlanni)

Round two - Party A wins initiative:
Party A acts (Aggro hits and kills Balto, Arkayn attacks Gutboy Barrelhouse, Abner casts Web and catches Gutboy, Barjin, Blastum, and Arkayn - combat ends)

That would resolve a couple of anomalies - the fact that Abner's combat-ending Web spell is stated to have ruined Blastum's in-preparation spell (which makes no sense in the published text), and the mention in the postscript that this example covered "two rounds of combat" (when as-published it only covers one).

It's possible that the example was written in the latter way but then (sloppily) edited into the former. Since we don't know who made that editing call (or, for that matter, who wrote the text - IIRC this has been speculated as one of the passages that Gary farmed out to Lawrence Schick or Jean Wells*) that wouldn't necessarily tell us anything about intent even if we could confirm this is what happened, but would perhaps suggest that there was confusion even internally at TSR about how these things were supposed to work...

*

EGG in Dragon #25 wrote: TSR’s new Design Department, namely Lawrence Shick and Jean Wells, undertook the authorship of two sections — ostensibly to test the mettle of these good folk, but actually to assure that the whole manuscript would be finished in a timely manner.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:13 am**

T. Foster wrote:One more thing: while I know speculating about editing errors in a BTB rules discussion is highly frowned upon, while looking at the DMG combat example just now it stood out to me that if we take party A's actions in round one and move them to round two a couple of things make a little better sense.

As the example reads in the printed text:

Party A wins 2 segments of surprise:
Party A acts in surprise segment 1 (Arlanni shoots at Blastum, Aggro hits Balto, Arkayn casts Command on Gutboy Barrelhouse, Abner casts Magic Missile and hits Gutboy Barrelhouse)
Party A acts in surprise segment 2 (Arlanni switches weapons, Aggro loses his action (due to Balto's high Dex), Arkayn switches weapons, Abner prepares a scroll)

Round one - Party B wins initiative:
Party B acts (Balto attacks Aggro, Gutboy Barrelhouse and Barjin hit Arkayn, Blastum casts Shocking Grasp and kills Arlanni)
Party A acts (Aggro hits and kills Balto, Arkayn attacks Gutboy Barrelhouse, Abner casts Web, catching Gutboy, Barjin, Blastum, and Arkayn - combat ends)

However, if we change it to:

Round one - Party A wins 2 segments of surprise:
Party A acts in surprise segment 1 (Arlanni shoots at Blastum, Aggro hits Balto, Arkayn casts Command on Gutboy Barrelhouse, Abner casts Magic Missile and hits Gutboy Barrelhouse)
Party A acts in surprise segment 2 (Arlanni switches weapons, Aggro loses his action (due to Balto's high Dex), Arkayn switches weapons, Abner prepares a scroll)
Party B acts (Balto attacks Aggro, Gutboy Barrelhouse and Barjin hit Arkayn, Blastum casts Shocking Grasp and kills Arlanni)

Round two - Party A wins initiative:
Party A acts (Aggro hits and kills Balto, Arkayn attacks Gutboy Barrelhouse, Abner casts Web and catches Gutboy, Barjin, Blastum, and Arkayn - combat ends)

That would resolve a couple of anomalies - the fact that Abner's combat-ending Web spell is stated to have ruined Blastum's in-preparation spell (which makes no sense in the published text), and the mention in the postscript that this example covered "two rounds of combat" (when as-published it only covers one).

I agree.

As I suggested recently, what if "Once surprise segments are over, melee proceeds normally on a round-by-round basis." actually meant "the surprised side now acts, filling out the remains of the round"? That would also explain the two references in the rules to initiative not being rolled if there was unequal surprise. p61 (step 3) is actually pretty clear that surprise runs into normal combat without the need for initiative and that a new round is not started (i.e., there's no "go to step 6 once surprise is resolved").

Sadly, it still doesn't fix the combat example on PHB 105 and how that sleep spell is ruined. But I don't see the combat section of PHB as much more than a statement of intent.

T. Foster wrote:FWIW I've always played with surprise segments being additional to rather than part of the first round, just like in the combat examples

Well, a lot of the time it doesn't make a lot of difference. Where it does have an impact is where range is involved. As written, a magic user who surprises a foe at, say, 90' will almost certainly get two decent spells in before they can close the range because the caster can cast at the start of surprise and then, regardless of how you work initiative, they're likely to have time to cast another spell early in the next round.

If surprise is part of the first round then after the surprise spell, the enemy have 8 or 9 segments in which to charge or close before the caster is allowed another spell.

That's a fairly big difference and one of the reasons why surprise being separate always bugged me.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:53 am**

If you think about it surprise is supposed to be a massive aspect of the game (for good and bad). It forces players to play smart, be involved, stop daydreaming, having side conversations or watching the TV out of the corner of their eye. If your party gets surprised for 4 segments by monsters that have poisonous bites, or 2 segments by something like ghouls with 3 attacks all paralyzing, bad tactics can quickly get a party killed or at least crippled. Good tactics also get rewarded. Think of the elf or ranger getting 3-4 segments of surprise with bows (just two elves could get off 16 arrows in 2 segments of surprise (4 arrows x 4 segments), if I'm remembering this correctly) and then normal attacks after rolling initiative. So, its consistent with the "big stakes" idea that the MU can get off 2 spells if he wins initiative . If he didn't (what happens when you put surprise as part of the normal round) it seems like a disproportionate punishment (compared with weapons) and it also forces this guy to use a weapon after the initiative role, which is just a lame mental image IMO (occasionally its fine, but every time your party wins initiative?)

I suppose you could rule that the MU can get off two spells in a single round in the case of surprise (if surprise segments are part of the 10 segments of the first combat round). But that seems to be contradictory to the rules as written.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:47 am**

AxeMental wrote:If you think about it surprise is supposed to be a massive aspect of the game (for good and bad).

Absolutely; a basic 1 in 3 chance per encounter isn't a corner-case.

So, its consistent with the "big stakes" idea that the MU can get off 2 spells if he wins initiative . If he didn't (what happens when you put surprise as part of the normal round) it seems like a disproportionate punishment (compared with weapons) and it also forces this guy to use a weapon after the initiative role, which is just a lame mental image IMO (occasionally its fine, but every time your party wins initiative?)

I see where you're coming from but the two spells immediately after each other leads to players who's spell caster is in a safe location (say, on a ledge overlooking the melee) to ponder the reason they can't unload all their 1- and 2-segment spells like a machine gun. Also - I would say that range is the spell-caster's friend, especially the magic user. And their friends (or hirelings) are their friends too. It shouldn't be easy to walk up to a magic user and poke him/her with a pointy stick. Like you say, reward tactics.

I suppose you could rule that the MU can get off two spells in a single round in the case of surprise (if surprise segments are part of the 10 segments of the first combat round). But that seems to be contradictory to the rules as written.

Which is exactly the dissonance that bother's me: the rules don't otherwise allow rapid casting.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:18 am**

I see your point Negora.

The archer who has his string drawn and hears orcs coming threw a doorway (of even a small room) can "go first" (even without winning surprise). That is btb correct?
Perhaps you could do the same for the prepared MU in the same situation.

Take an adventuring party of 4: two fighters (using bows) a cleric and a MU.
They hear approaching orcs laughing (after a successful raid) see their torch light, a full 2 rounds before they enter the room your in (cornered as you are). The party has a few options, but opts to get as far back as possible from the door and use their bows and magic, hopefully surprising. The fighters knock arrows and draw strings back, holding a few seconds until the orcs enter, simply releasing the first arrows as the party of orcs turn the corner (auto go first, even before surprise is rolled if I understand this correctly).

The MU prepares as well. He pulls out his components for sleep (or whatever his spell) and has them ready to go in his hand, and is mentally prepared and far enough away from the fighters not to get bumped, he has chosen a spot with a clear line of site and good footing. The cleric prepares to cast a light spell (getting prepared) incase there's something bigger with them (earlier the party found ogre sized footprints in mud) he will cast it on the creatures eyes).

If surprise is won, we know how to do that.

If surprise is not won by the party, I believe this is how it goes BtB: the two fighters with bows get off their first arrows and start reaching for their second arrows (they have to wait to see if they win initiative).

The spell casters can't do anything until after initiative is rolled (something goes wrong).

The DM roles a 6 the party a 1. Before the MU can get off his prepared sleep spell 6 orcs get into the room and throw spears at the MU (4 hit, his 10 AC isn't impressive, and he's now a pin cushion). The room isn't very big and the fighters get rushed (without shields up). The cleric forgets about the light spell for now, and starts heading over to cast a CLW on the MU who's starting to bleed out.

I could see allowing the MU in this case to get an advantage (given he's taken all the precautions) sort of like the two figheter/archers. But I don't think that would be BtB. But it is logical and I think thats supposed to trump the rules at times. I might not give the benefit to the MU if the orcs do something unexpected (say some enter threw a secret door the party didn't know about, or perhaps they have their own advance scouts who are checking for ambushes ahead etc.).

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:48 am**

AxeMental wrote:The archer who has his string drawn and hears orcs coming threw a doorway (of even a small room) can "go first" (even without winning surprise). That is btb correct?

Only if you're using weapon specialization and the archer is a bow (or crossbow) specialist.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:09 am**

T. Foster wrote:
AxeMental wrote:The archer who has his string drawn and hears orcs coming threw a doorway (of even a small room) can "go first" (even without winning surprise). That is btb correct?
Only if you're using weapon specialization and the archer is a bow (or crossbow) specialist.

No, I don’t use UA other then some spells races and magic items. So preUA non specialized in bow fighter with the notched and drawn back arrow still can be beat (if the party does not win surprise and looses the normal initiative role)? I’ve always given the drawn arrow or crossbow (if it is pre-aimed at the entrance and there is no suspicion by the enemy, auto first (assuming things go as expected) even without surprise. I guess I’m doing it wrong.

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:23 am**

AxeMental wrote:
T. Foster wrote:
AxeMental wrote:The archer who has his string drawn and hears orcs coming threw a doorway (of even a small room) can "go first" (even without winning surprise). That is btb correct?
Only if you're using weapon specialization and the archer is a bow (or crossbow) specialist.
No, I don’t use UA other then some spells races and magic items. So preUA non specialized in bow fighter with the notched and drawn back arrow still can be beat (if the party does not win surprise and looses the normal initiative role)? I’ve always given the drawn arrow or crossbow (if it is pre-aimed at the entrance and there is no suspicion by the enemy, auto first (assuming things go as expected) even without surprise. I guess I’m doing it wrong.

Not necessarily "wrong" (in the sense that whatever works for you and your group is fine, and that the idea of giving a prepared archer automatic first-strike was "out there," which is presumably why Gary added it for specialists), but definitely not "By The (pre-UA) Book."

Posted: **Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:09 pm**

I can see not giving an auto attack in the abstraction as well. Perhaps not winning surprise might be related to orcs noticing PC footprints or accidentally dropped items at the last second. The orcs might dive in, or prepare spears to throw before turning the corner (with orcs holding shields they duck behind and then stand and toss) effectively matching the guy with the pulled back or precocked crossbow to his ear (ditto the guy casting his spell from what he believed to be a superior state of preparation. Even non-humanoid monsters that notice something odd might be able to do something unexpected (depending on type) a giant spider moving very quickly or jumping for instance.

If you think about it, the players have everyone on their side figuring out strategy and what to do, the monsters really only have the combat system to factor in their own intelligence, heightened monster senses, experience from other groups of adventurers or enemy etc. (certainly the DM doesn't have much time to sit and think about minutia). A first level group of PCs against hobgoblins or orcs is a similar fight to a 5-6th level group against a group of trolls or ogres I suppose.

Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Initiative & Spellcasting

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha

Re: PCs surprised, but caster avoids with high dex, then wha