Initiative & Spellcasting

[AxeMental]

Geng, you seem to be emotionally tied up in this. I'm glad you could do drugs and be drunk in high school (thats very cool). I don't think that adds much to your argument however.
This is a btb forum so, some of us (certainly not most of us) are looking to see what others with different conclusions think (and what thats based on). Negora was such a person, so I wanted to hear what he had to say and compare that to what others have pointed out in the past (in case he was on to something). It turned out I wasn't convinced his sysem 1. made much logical sense and 2. was supported in the rules. This is an objective observation. I'm open to having my opinion changed, its just that Negora failed to do so. I remember back when this all came up over a decade ago, and I felt the same then as now.

[genghisdon]

Naw, not emotional about it at all; more the reverse, today. I cannot be bothered to cover this old ground for 100th time online. It's been argued around & around by folks like Nagora, Matthew, myself & many others on DF years ago, ad nauseam.

I'm not concerned about changing the minds of older players invested in strange versions of house rules they somehow make to function to some degree. I know full well how pointless & futile that effort is. The "someone else might come looking" was what motivated what little I said, and that was foolish, really. Nobody is going to find this initiative discussion, they will, perhaps find "declaration before initiative" in a search, and that, albeit way too slowly, was answered on page 1.

[AxeMental]

never mind

[AxeMental]

Like I said, not many here (including people dragged into it like Foster) care much. I do for no real reason. I suppose people collect stamps. Why? Who the hell knows.

As for trying to change anyones mind, I don't see it that way. I'm more objective. As for EGG backing d6+1 (I guess thats what they are calling it) well, that was a thread I was a part of and I tried to get every angle. At the time I was banned at DF, but I do remember wanting to ask him about some of the conflicting ideas about initiative, but I was pretty sure I'd either get the thread locked or deleted. The fatal flaw of Negora's system (I suppose DMPrata is where he got it) is that a spell always begins on segment 1 (ie. the first second of every round). That means conditions are always perfect for casting a spell on the first second...think about that. No one is bumping into them, no one is in the way, the ground is always firm, the pocket holding spell components is agreeable (not tied up as IRL it always is) think of real life combat (watch Band of Brothers on Netflix, finished it last night, for some RL combat portrayal...Murphy's law and all). You can say its just a rule that makes a system function. OK I get that. But so is the d6+1. If you reread this thread the evidence is mostly supportive of this d6+1 system in my objective opinion. But like I said, if something gets dug up proving it wrong and DMPrata correct, I'd glady admit its correct. I wouldn't use it, but thats another matter.

PS We didn't typically explain the rules to 1E players, only DMs in training. That would be like explaining the magic trick to the audience before presenting it. Just curious if you were explaining the rules to newbies or experienced players (the high on pot comment above).

[Juju EyeBall]

[Nagora]

The fatal flaw of Negora's system (I suppose DMPrata is where he got it)

As I said upthread, I arrived at the same conclusion independently. Indeed, the reason I mentioned it was to stress that at least two people had arrived at the same point without know about eachother.

is that a spell always begins on segment 1 (ie. the first second of every round). That means conditions are always perfect for casting a spell on the first second...think about that.

If that was true then, like Ska's system, it would be impossible to interrupt 1-segment spells. Again, I did talk about this.

If you reread this thread the evidence is mostly supportive of this d6+1 system in my objective opinion.

I can't argue that something isn't something in your subjective opinion, but the evidence that d6+ is not the system in the DMG is so overwhelming that it's just a joke, regardless of whether it works or not. It objectively contradicts the book - the response to which was "oh, we ignore that rule" Obviously you can say any system is BtB if you rip out the bits of text it contradicts.

PS We didn't typically explain the rules to 1E players, only DMs in training. That would be like explaining the magic trick to the audience before presenting it.

I agree.

[EOTB]

Sidebreak - do you ever plan on releasing play content, Nagora? Seems a shame to make rules parsing your main claim to fame.

[Nagora]

Sidebreak - do you ever plan on releasing play content, Nagora? Seems a shame to make rules parsing your main claim to fame.

Well, it's something!

I am working on a project, and there's hints of it in the doc in my sig, but work and paying the mortgage are pushing big things down the list. Not to mention trying to get a novel published and another one written.

I get the odd game in here and there; nothing like enough. I've a job interview on Monday which would save me two hours a day commuting (out of 4); that would give me some space for more gaming and everything else. But I don't think they're going to stump up enough cash to make it work for me. I've a huge pension shortfall to make up and decreasing amounts of time to do it in and while I hate travelling to the university every day, the pension is insanely good. Hey, ho.

[EOTB]

Fingers crossed they make it worth your while.

Hope you get time to play and polish up some adventure content. It'd be nice to see more of the 1E longtimers showcasing their knowledge in modules as opposed to debates. (I'm not exempt from this either.)

Even Don, although that might require a good editor to scrub the Tourettes out of it.

[AxeMental]

I missed that you independently came to the same conclusion as DMPrata. That is worth something.

My point is neither system presented is supported well (or we wouldn't need to have this conversation), but I feel 1. not knowing precisely when the MU casts (but knowing when everyone else gets their attack in) is a major problem, and 2. the default is "spells begin on second 1 of segment 1 (if its a 1 segment spell which is the majority of spells used for the first 3 or 4 levels) when the party looses initiative (which is 50% of the time) otherwise the enemy wouldn't get a chance to interrupt the spell". I just don't think EGG would have intended this. Granted, that isn't evidence, its just my gut impression.

To be clear, I appreciate you and others showing up and discussing 1E. Even though this topic annoys many (I don't blame them), I did get some new information that (I believe) hadn't come up in previous discussions on this topic (Foster's pointing out likely omissions that should have been included before publication, for instance).

Yeah, more time making modules and monster books would be a better use of our time for certain.

[AxeMental]

This came up in tonights game (I wasn't DMing).

The party was attacked by lizard men, and was surprised for 2 segments.
The illusionist has an 18 dex and isn't surprised, but the other 3 PCs are surprised for 2 segments (so for 12 seconds they are under attack but the illusionist can't be attacked in that time. The question is, can the illusionist do anything for those 12 seconds? I would say yes, if he isn't under attack (he could move his location, take out a vile, perhaps even cast a non-offensive 1 segment spell (he isn't flat footed, and he's not attacking. This is a 2 segment period of time before normal combat begins after all).

In tonights game, the illusionist wished to cast change self (to disguise himself as a lizard man) during the 2 segments the rest of the group was attacked (in surprise). How would you have ruled on this?

If DMing, I would have allowed it. But the DM ruled no, the PC didn't win surprise against the lizard men and so had to wait until normal initiative to do any action. But thats 12 seconds of being what....in a quasi-surprise state (can't be attacked, but can't do "anything" but watch?). Lets say the illusionist instead wanted to run away from the battle while the party was being attacked for 2 segments (perhaps to leave the combat zone) would you allow it (again, the PCs are surprised for 2 segments, but this individual has an 18 dex)?

[Philotomy Jurament]

If the encounter distance was such that the illusionist wasn't "engaged" (i.e., within 1" of an unsurprised lizard man that wanted to harm him), then I'd rule he can immediately begin casting a spell during the surprise segments. If it's a 1 or 2 segment spell, it will finish during surprise, otherwise it will go off in the appropriate segment of the round (unless it's interrupted). Basically, his reaction adjustment negates his personal surprise: he's free to act at the same moment as the lizard men.

[AxeMental]

If the encounter distance was such that the illusionist wasn't "engaged" (i.e., within 1" of an unsurprised lizard man that wanted to harm him), then I'd rule he can immediately begin casting a spell during the surprise segments. If it's a 1 or 2 segment spell, it will finish during surprise, otherwise it will go off in the appropriate segment of the round (unless it's interrupted). Basically, his reaction adjustment negates his personal surprise: he's free to act at the same moment as the lizard men.

That is a logical way of seeing it (sort of like both sides rolling the same number). However, the 18 dex PC didn't win surprise so is it really fair to allow him a chance to fire off an offensive spell in those first two pre-round segments?

My take is -the PCs rolled horribly (a 2), this 18 dex guy just managed to avoid being ripped apart with his super reflexes, now he gets to see his buddies torn apart). But, he's not stunned. He still gets dex bonus, he can still move somewhat. But his side did loose...it seems like it should be a punishment. So, I wouldn't allow an 18 dex MU to cast a 1 segment offensive spell like sleep against the lizard men (who won 2 segments of surprise on the rest of the group), if he rolls high in number effected he might take out all the lizard men before the initiative is even rolled and before the lizard men have a chance to get him)
-but I would allow him to cast a defensive spell upon himself (but not his comrades) as he is still likely in some state of shock (perhaps he can act defensively the way a fighter can get the benefit of dex and shield). So, I would allow him to cast shield, jump or invisibility in those 2 segments, or I would allow him to hall ass if he wanted (as long as he wasn't melee range of the enemy).

If you let the 18 dex guy cast the sleep spell, for instance (I'm not sure your suggesting this), the lizard men would have been better off not attempting surprise (that is, in the case of a high dex caster being present) and would be better off taking their chance just winning normal initiative. In our games (and I'm not sure this is correct) side A all go at the same time and side B all go at the same time, we don't adjust for high dex (ie. the fighter with an 18 dex doesn't get to hit with his sword earlier then the fighter with a 9 dex).

To your other point, a caster could be in range, but be in the second tier (as was the case tonight). I wouldn't allow a lizard man to move past the fighter and attack the MU, even if the MU was part of the surprise (not without subjecting the lizard man to some sort of free attack by the fighter). The fighter should still be able to react defensively, he has his shield and dex bonus (so movement ability is OK, just not attack ability).

Do you agree with this PJ (or anyone else that cares to comment)?

[Ratbreath]

I agree with everything Philotomy has said so far.

It should make no difference whether his spell is offensive or defensive. Certainly the rules don't say anything about one sort being easier to cast. The MU is not getting a free spell though. Since it's effectively a normal round for him versus the lizardmen, initiatives should be rolled to see if he can get his spell off before any of them act offensively against him.

The lizardmen are still better off with surprise than without it as they now only have the MU to contend with before the normal round starts. During surprise they can still get multiple attacks on the other party members. After the surprise segments are over then a new initiative is rolled.

[Philotomy Jurament]

That is a logical way of seeing it (sort of like both sides rolling the same number). However, the 18 dex PC didn't win surprise so is it really fair to allow him a chance to fire off an offensive spell in those first two pre-round segments?

Yes.

The lizard men aren't surprised: they can begin to act (and will benefit if their actions target surprised individuals). The illusionist isn't surprised: he can begin to act (but doesn't get any additional benefits because all his potential targets are unsurprised).

My take is -the PCs rolled horribly (a 2), this 18 dex guy just managed to avoid being ripped apart with his super reflexes, now he gets to see his buddies torn apart). But, he's not stunned. He still gets dex bonus, he can still move somewhat.

He's not surprised. He can act.

But his side did loose...it seems like it should be a punishment.

His side is punished. But his personal (exceptional) Dex makes him an exception.

So, I wouldn't allow an 18 dex MU to cast a 1 segment offensive spell like sleep against the lizard men...but I would allow him to cast a defensive spell upon himself (but not his comrades) as he is still likely in some state of shock...

I don't agree. He's not surprised, and not in a state of shock. He has an exceptional reaction bonus that makes him an exception to the norm. He's free to begin acting. (However, I also wouldn't raise this disagreement if you were DMing a game in which I was a player. I do understand your argument, and you're the DM. It's your ruling.)

If you let the 18 dex guy cast the sleep spell, for instance (I'm not sure your suggesting this)...

I would allow that. If the MU has the opportunity and time to cast shield, he has the opportunity and time to cast sleep.

...the lizard men would have been better off not attempting surprise (that is, in the case of a high dex caster being present) and would be better off taking their chance just winning normal initiative.

The lizard men don't know that there's a spellcaster with an exceptional Dex in the party. Normally, their tactic would be sound. They'd go with what is normally the best tactic. I don't think they'd not attempt surprise on anyone just because there might be an exceptionally dexterous spellcaster in any given group.

In our games (and I'm not sure this is correct) side A all go at the same time and side B all go at the same time, we don't adjust for high dex (ie. the fighter with an 18 dex doesn't get to hit with his sword earlier then the fighter with a 9 dex).

I generally agree.

There are precedents for using Dex to affect initiative, going back to original D&D, but I don't do that. I go by side, like you do. However, in AD&D, Dex does affect surprise (by negating surprise segments for specific individuals), and I do use that. There are also situations and corner cases where I might use Dex as a determining factor for initiative, but that falls more into the gray area of rulings, rather than specific rules. Surprise isn't usually one of those corner cases.

To your other point, a caster could be in range, but be in the second tier (as was the case tonight). I wouldn't allow a lizard man to move past the fighter and attack the MU, even if the MU was part of the surprise (not without subjecting the lizard man to some sort of free attack by the fighter). The fighter should still be able to react defensively, he has his shield and dex bonus (so movement ability is OK, just not attack ability).

I generally agree, but I can think of exceptions. In most cases, I think the lizard men would attack (or charge to attack, or whatever) the party's front rank, and the MU would remain secure in the second rank. However, if there were some reason that the lizard men might know of and want to specifically target the MU in the second rank, then I might allow a lizard man to use an overbear to break through the (surprised) first rank to get the MU. That's all highly dependent on the exact circumstances, though, and "overbearing" to break through/past an enemy is more of a house rule than BTB rule. (Usually overbearing just means taking an enemy to the ground/prone.)