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I dunno, low-level Druid spells are rarely useful, so giving them more of them just gives them a better shot at actually using one of them.

animal friendship*, speak with animals, entangle, detect magic, charm person or mammal, heat (or chill) metal, cure light wounds, warp wood, fire trap, cure disease, neutralize poison, summon insects, stone shape, etc, are pretty damned useful.

L2 spells at L2
L3 spells at L3

HELLO

a cleric is waiting until L7 to do what a druid can at L3, save a PC that fails/falls to a poisonous attacker. Just by itself, that's huge.
charm person is hella awesome, while a druid gets it at L2 instead of (maybe) 1 as a MU does, theirs is better in that it works on beasts as well as people.
cure light wounds is a L2 spell, but again, that just means it comes up at L2; 1 level after the cleric.

I'm not getting it, the druid is probably the most powerful class, surpassed only in rare cases. druids are the supreme leader/zookeeper/summoner class in AD&D; 15+ CHR means henchmen galore, and positive reactions, especially when combined with a N outlook. They can talk to, take service from, or lead, most any/everything. And then their magic lets them pile on whole hosts of beasts & men. Add Elementals to that mix later on. Druids probably have too much to do, even if it's merely via followers.

* best/most powerful/versatile L1 spell in the game?!

I dunno, man. I mean, I don’t dispute that it’s a powerful class, on paper. Pit a high-level Druid man-to-man against a character of equal X.P. of any other class, and the Druid will win, for sure. But we’re talking about low levels, and, in actual play, we’re likely talking about him a part of a group, adventuring underground. There are no animals or foliage around, which eliminates 2/3 of their spells. In my experience, Druid players at low levels only ever cast faerie fire — a doubtless useful, but unimaginative and somewhat embarrassing spell —, until they get that one 3rd-level spell, which goes towards summon insects. The rest are about as powerful as cantrips. Like what is barkskin compared to protection from evil or curse or sanctuary? Or shillelagh compared to bless or chant or spiritual hammer? As for animal friendship, as-written it allows you to teach a dog to do tricks — typical tricks, nothing complex.

Falconer wrote:I dunno, man. I mean, I don’t dispute that it’s a powerful class, on paper. Pit a high-level Druid man-to-man against a character of equal X.P. of any other class, and the Druid will win, for sure.

Absolutely, since they'll be 1-3 levels ahead of most other classes in level, with more HP, better to hit, and saves as a result...

Falconer wrote:But we’re talking about low levels, and, in actual play, we’re likely talking about him a part of a group,

...where he's probably the most power character in the party, with a natural high charisma, so probably the leader too...

Falconer wrote:adventuring underground. There are no animals or foliage around, which eliminates 2/3 of their spells.

...and even underground you have tons of fungi (shriekers, etc.), lichens, mosses, slimes (?), molds, etc. that could be well-within the purview of a druid. Plus bugs (giant ants, ankhegs, purple worms, etc., etc.) too....

plenty of animals/mammals in low level dungeons as well; giant rats, giant ferrets, giant weasels, giant bats, etc, etc. Plus things like bears, boars, wolves & so forth are common in D&D.

A big part of the druid's prowess is that they ARE NOT going mano et mano ever, though, I'll admit.

You really sound like you are used to a 2e druid though, Falconer (same spell progress as clerics there). In 1e, they are well ahead in spells as well, even without taking fast level advancement into account. L2 spells at L2, L3 spells at L3. They can out cast anyone at low levels, even without wisdom bonus spells. With bonus spells, it's sick.

typical tricks like "guard", "attack", etc, are pretty handy. load up on speak with animals at L1, it's terrific in many ways. Faerie fire is not much, no, but taking it often is the problem. It does prove very valuable against hard to spot or tricky types that use invisibility, displacement, have a mirror image going, etc, though. Take it once at mid+ levels just for that.

Trust me & Grodog Falconer, once you see a player that "gets" how to play a druid effectively, your doubts will vanish & you'll be looking at the druid & wondering WTF they can't get done. Go ahead & give them bonus spells until that day

Druids can't wear effective armor, can't turn undead, and have a generally inferior selection of healing and support spells. It seems reasonable to me that they get more spells by way of compensation for this.

As others have indicated very well already, a perfectly reasonable and easily defensible BtB interpretation is that druids receive extra spells according to their wisdom, same as a cleric.

Whether or not it's a good rule is really a separate topic (and probably belongs in another forum).

Chainsaw, you are right, I’m sorry. Case closed.

But just for the record, I have ZERO experience with the 2e Druid.

And giant rats are neutral evil, so animal friendship won’t work on them.

Blackadder23 wrote:Druids can't wear effective armor, can't turn undead, and have a generally inferior selection of healing and support spells. It seems reasonable to me that they get more spells by way of compensation for this.

They DO get more spells, just via the spell charts.

Once in a while a druid will get hosed by a specific adventure, but that's also true of most classes. I've had druids totally dominate games, many, many times though, and they are always potent.

Just the last time I played (party included HL monk, MU, Ftr/MU, and F/MU/T-A) the druid was anything but weak. Hell, his grizzly bears were tearing vampires to shreds right off the bat, etc. Silly vamps never even managed to drain a level. Twice he got "polymorphed to death" & just laughed it off. Yes, druids don't have a good AC. So what? they have everything else going for them. They either have the most HP or second best. The scouting/information gathering potential is a serious bonus people might be overlooking.

SLIGHTLY inferior healing spells, maybe (they are better vs poisons & can self heal quite well), and the support is of a different nature (they add extra combatants to the team more than boost other PC's), but their offensive magic leaves a cleric's far in the dust. Not up to MU standards, but they are in between cleric & MU, with a mix of both capabilities. At worst, they are SECOND best at healing, which makes them better than 9/10 classes.

No, they aren't clerics (they are flat out better), so maybe look at them for what they are (compared to ALL other classes) rather than just what one wants from the cleric. A group probably would do well to have cleric, but the druid actually replaces the fighter/ranger/paladin best.

Falconer wrote:Chainsaw, you are right, I’m sorry. Case closed.

But just for the record, I have ZERO experience with the 2e Druid.

Then I don't get how you don't see their superior # of spells/level, wisdom mods or not

Falconer wrote:And giant rats are neutral evil, so animal friendship won’t work on them.

are they really? Hard to say, the MM does have NG as N(g) & NE as N(e), but it's also possible they are merely N (w/evil tendency)...not that giant rats are prime candidates for animal friendship anyway. Speak with animals, charm person or mammal (probably also a waste) can do the job just fine.

genghisdon wrote:typical tricks like "guard", "attack", etc, are pretty handy…

Just the last time I played … the druid was anything but weak. Hell, his grizzly bears were tearing vampires to shreds right off the bat, etc.

Heh, good pun!

Anyway, I don’t think that animal friendship would allow you to teach the animal to attack for you. That seems more complex than what the spell description suggests. If I allowed it, I would rule that the animal would attack a random target (could be friendly).

Also, grizzly BEARS? You’d have to be at least 6th level to control multiple grizzlies, again according to the spell description.

genghisdon wrote:Trust me & Grodog Falconer, once you see a player that "gets" how to play a druid effectively, your doubts will vanish & you'll be looking at the druid & wondering WTF they can't get done. Go ahead & give them bonus spells until that day

I will, thanks!

Anyway, Don, I’m done with this thread. We’ve established that either reading is perfectly BTB, so anything beyond that is just advice from one DM to another.

Falconer wrote:Anyway, I don’t think that animal friendship would allow you to teach the animal to attack for you. That seems more complex than what the spell description suggests. If I allowed it, I would rule that the animal would attack a random target (could be friendly).

That's not how trained attack dogs work in the real world - they almost never attack the wrong target, and no magic is used in their training.

I'd say a druid will easily be able to train his "animal friend" to do anything that animals have been trained to do in real life.

The default attack mode they would be trained for would be to attack anything the druid is fighting, or which has attacked the druid - and the druid should also be able to teach the animal each party member's name, as well as the "protect" command.

This would allow them to order the animal to "protect Bob" (Bob being the mage, for example), and the animal would fight anything that attacks Bob.

yeah, it seems some believe "trained"= no different than random behaviour, but even with such a horrific nerf, there is still CHARMED & SPEAK WITH to get around such silliness (albeit it is indeed a big obstacle over time).

Falconer wrote:
Also, grizzly BEARS? You’d have to be at least 6th level to control multiple grizzlies, again according to the spell description.

The druid was much higher than 6th level (10th), and not even "trying hard" (had less than max HD of animal friends, 2 bears, an eagle [left at home] & an owl, no charmed or summoned, no extras)

The vampires were of the "spawn" type, 4+3 HD (half HD), but there were 8 of them as a random encounter (travel via the dim forest to the main adventure locale), I was surprised NOBODY lost a level, and the group curb stomped them quickly & badly, not even allowing any of them to escape in gaseous form. Marty rolled well in the encounter, both for his own PC & his bears (who mauled vamps with claw/claw/bite/hug; nasty damage can pile up)

BlackBat242 wrote: That's not how trained attack dogs work in the real world - they almost never attack the wrong target, and no magic is used in their training.

I'd say a druid will easily be able to train his "animal friend" to do anything that animals have been trained to do in real life.

OK, so since the intent of the spell is to speed up/ease what is normally taught to dogs in "real life", dogs can reliably attack anything found in real life (or non-fantastical humanoids like orcs that have few fantastical powers/nature).

We've never ordered dogs to attack ghouls, werewolves, mind flayers, etc. So we can't say that a police dog trainer could dependably create that willingness in the animal. But you want to sic Fido on the town guard? Knock yourself out.

If you think something is too powerful, applying liberal interpretations of text if probably the first thing I would drop.

Right, the spell simply speaks of tricks.