Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I typically don't give zombies a chance of surprise since they always go last (the exception is stunned PCs, say falling off a horse badly, falling down a hole etc.). But I'm wondering if that was the intention. Romero zombies are constantly popping out of closets, grabbing ankles and biting them from under beds etc. What can I say, I'm trying to catch up on Walking Dead and this idea popped into my head.

I would classify Romero "zombies" more as ghouls, since they eat corpses and turn their victims into more undead (and the characters in Night of the Living Dead actually called them "ghouls"). D&D zombies are more like Haitian folklore zombies (who aren't allowed to eat meat at all, let alone human flesh).

Wow, I play my zombies were they tear you the fuck apart (check out the damage) not sure if they eat you, I suppose they might as an attack form. As for the islands (Haiti) there's always "Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068370/

The zombies of Voodoo legend are too weak to mention IMO, kinda like modern day ghosts. Good call on the ghouls.

I let zombies surprise normally.

Surprise, yes. Riffing off Classic D&D, slowness is accounted for by 'no iniitiative dice need be rolled; zombies attack last, always' (44 Basic (Red) Set). Holmes is also an option, zombies attack every other round (34 Holmes D&D).

Blackadder23 wrote:I would classify Romero "zombies" more as ghouls, since they eat corpses and turn their victims into more undead (and the characters in Night of the Living Dead actually called them "ghouls"). D&D zombies are more like Haitian folklore zombies (who aren't allowed to eat meat at all, let alone human flesh).

I reread this and agree about the Voodoo source (though obviously dead and rotting) and yes, they more beat you to death then eat you or rip you to death (at least thats my impression). Also I agree about the eating of corpses (probably wouldn't typically do this), though I would think biting in combat is possible for both skeletons and zombies, and occasionally eating on bodies is within the parameters of the "classic image". Though I agree its not about that (the way it is for ghouls and weights).

My initial question about surprise had more to do with the MM description (would something that slow even be able to surprise). A zombie hidden behind a curtain btb goes last, but did Gygax intend them to get a normal surprise attack? I have never given a zombie surprise, but maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Another question: Do zombies and skeletons have an inclination to attack living things on their own. For instance, if created and then not given an order (the cleric creates 4 zombies in the middle of a forest with a nearby village and roads, and then walks away not giving them any order), what do they do? My impression is that they'd eventually start wondering around (probably staying together) and attack things (perhaps wonder into village or attack passersby). Though mindless, I think they have some base need to be agressive or kill (zombies more then skeletons perhaps). I think Gygax expected DMs and players to bring in outside knowledge when playing the game, and default to popular books, pop culture, fairy tale, legends or the DM's whim etc. Zombies are a bit problematic given the range to choose from....unlike say vampires that pretty much always operate the same).

I don't think you're necessarily "doing it wrong". I've always rolled for zombies to surprise, but that's because I've never really thought about the issue as you've framed it. I may have to reconsider and not allow zombies to surprise in the future.

As to whether zombies are aggressive of their own volition, I think that's a DM judgment call. There's nothing in the MM that suggests that zombies attack the living on sight, like there is for a lot of the undead types (e.g., wights). My personal opinion is that zombies (and skeletons) are just tools created by the animate dead spell, and so they do exactly what their master says and no more. So if the necromancer neglects to assign them a task, and doesn't tell them to attack intruders, they just stand around doing nothing. What do they care? They're dead! But I can see how a DM might rule that zombies always attack unless their masters says not to. The dead hate the living, and all that. It's really a matter of interpretation.

I don't give them surprise, but it's possible for PC's to be surprised by a zombie encounter.

While there is no special advantage or disadvantage mentioned; I'd consider modifiers on a situational basis.

The stink of rotting flesh might tip off players that SOMETHING rotten is nearby, etc. Zombies generally aren't actively TRYING to be the jump on people/ambush them, so their chances probably ought be less in general.

But yeah, it CAN happen

I would allow them normal surprise, because there is no rule to not do so. Also they are as quiet as the grave.

PH: "Surprise is simply the unexpected, unprepared for."
It isn't necessarily the monster surprising the party. I've walked around corners and been surprised by my own reflection in a mirror.
And there's more to surprise than attacks.
In many situations, melee attacks can't even take place in a surprise situation. You have a 1 in 3 chance of being close enough to melee at the start of standard surprise situations. Closing to striking range is sometimes the most you can accomplish. That can still be a big difference.
In most normal encounters there's going to be at least one round of closing required where missile fire and spells can take a toll before melee commences. Surprise can negate that.
The party rounds a corner in a dungeon. The dice indicate the party is surprised. Now instead of the monsters being 50 to 100 feet away, they'll be 30' away at the most. They might be close enough to attack. They may be able to close and attack with more than one segment of surprise, or they might be able to close the distance so that they're in the party's face when combat begins. So the party may still end up attacking first, but losing one or two rounds of softening up the zombies before they get to attack back can greatly alter the difficulty of the encounter.

Thats a great point Scotty, and something I always forget to factor in (distance to clear). I guess I screw over my players often (since most monsters don't have missiles they have to physically move in). For some reason I just assumed distance was factored into the abstraction of the surprise role (ie. the monster just happened to be close enough to attack). I'll take another look at surprise tonight.

Yes, I give zombies a chance of surprise.

The only thing that might mitigate this is if the Detection of Odor rules from the DSG are being used. (cf. DSG.38)