Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I know this has come up before, but I don't remember if we came to any consensus. Do you guys think there was an intention with sleep to limit the number of HD in total that can be effected (so for instance, if you have a tight grouping of 2 4 HD monsters, 3 3+1, 4 3, 8 2+1, 10 2, 10 1+1, 14 1 HD how would you handle it?). I was thinking the max would be up to 16 HD, but it seems to read that you role individually for each category, which I don't remember off hand (I think that was the conclusion we came to before). Something similar came up in the game last night when my PC cast sleep, so was wondering.

I think it means that you only affect the lower HD creatures unless you specifically target only one of the higher HD creature.

For example you have 7 goblins and 2 bugbears. The mage casts the sleep at one of the bugbears who falls asleep. Noone else does.

Or he casts it at the group and affects up to 4-16 of the goblins and no bugbears

AxeMental wrote:I know this has come up before, but I don't remember if we came to any consensus. Do you guys think there was an intention with sleep to limit the number of HD in total that can be effected (so for instance, if you have a tight grouping of 2 4 HD monsters, 3 3+1, 4 3, 8 2+1, 10 2, 10 1+1, 14 1 HD how would you handle it?). I was thinking the max would be up to 16 HD, but it seems to read that you role individually for each category, which I don't remember off hand (I think that was the conclusion we came to before). Something similar came up in the game last night when my PC cast sleep, so was wondering.

A uniform number of HD affected would be the basis for sleep in other editions (2d8 HD in B/X, 2d4 HD in 3.5e, etc), but it's not in AD&D/1e.

How do I handle it? As best I can, grumbling about what a pain in the ass it is. The trouble starts with 2+ to 3 HD, as they aren't double the HD of 1+ to 2 HD monsters. One can "solve" the issue by using the 4d4 as HD, but they counting: 2+ to 3 HD= 4HD of sleep, 3+1 to 4 HD= 6 HD of sleep (doesn't really work), and 4+1 to 4+4 HD = 9 HD of the sleep spell.

Or just call bullshit on it & use the B/X spell, which is undoubtedly the better way to go (which is what I'd ACTUALLY do )

Per the DMG, sleep certainly DOES NOT affect those numbers of each HD per spell: "Sleep: Unless a single creature is designated as the target of a sleep spell in a mixed group, the sleep spell will first affect the lowest Ievel/hit dice targets." DMG pg 45

You'll get a similar problem with the death spell in 1e; but it's got some charts to go with it.

Good catch. So it does seem to suggest there is a "run out" point (or why bother saying you start with the lower HD in a mixed group). I tend to give the maximum to players as DM (which I think is the traditional fallback based on multiclass PCs getting the better of saves and tables) so I'd say a max of 16HD and role for each category (until all 16 are used up).

How does 0E handle sleep (probably the better place to look for clues since 1E was based on 0E, its advanced version).

"Sleep: A Sleep spell affects from 2-16 1st level types (hit dice of up to 1 + 1), from 2-12 2nd level types (hit dice of up to 2 +1), from 1-6, 3rd level types, and but 1 4th level type (up to 4 +1 hit dice). The spell always affects up to the number of creatures determined by the dice. If more than the number rolled could be affected, determine which "sleep" by random selection. Range: 24"" M&M pg 23

genghisdon wrote:
A uniform number of HD affected would be the basis for sleep in other editions (2d8 HD in B/X, 2d4 HD in 3.5e, etc), but it's not in AD&D/1e.

Yep, and to add to to this, the DMG says:

Sleep: Unless a single creature is designated as the target of a sleep
spell in a mixed group, the sleep spell will first affect the lowest level/hit
dice targets.

So........how many of the higher level creatures?

It is confusing, for certain.