Knights & Knaves Alehouse

deathanddrek wrote: The BtB rule works to the advantage of Halfling slingers with piss poor strength actually. I suppose they'd get their minuses if they had their weapons specially made!

Ha! Those pint sized little munchkins!

Ha!! Good one. Nice find with the Sage Advice too.

Axemental wrote:

...looking for the page number where composite bows are described (the pluses for damage, figured it was in PH weapons section, but not seeing it),

I think the consternation over the redundancy of weapon factors and variable weapon factors bears on this question. Another way of emphasizing the quality of composite bows would be to use weapon factors and dispense with variable damage and the optional crunching of damage modifiers. To be sure this interpretation is more in the vein of OD&D than the Advanced Game (not withstanding a return to the 2d6 spread of Chainmail and 'hits' interpreted as 'kills') and though some will cry foul over the possible dubious historicity of the weapon factors table, I find it to be more in the spirit of the game than resorting to variable damage and damage modifiers. It is, of course, a question of granularity, and how far one is willing to be tricked into the quantum-style mechanics of laters editions.

I differentiate composite bows from others by ruling that only the composite bows can be used mounted.

Also, the composite long bow can be used in the dungeon, while the regular long bow cannot unless there's a really high ceiling.

It's not by the book, nor is it particularly historically accurate, I know.

We alwasy gave strength damage bonus for the composite bow as well. I think it is becuase when we were younger we equated the composite bow as a compound bow where the pull strength can be adjusted for someone stronger.

Matthew wrote:Looks like Sage Advice in Dragon #137 may be an early culprit:

Q. The rules say that fighters can get their strength bonuses with special bows. What kind of bows apply, and how much do they cost?

A. This is up to the DM, but we suggest that you require a composite bow. One local campaign figures the cost of such special bows using the base cost for the bow plus an additional and equal cost per bonus point of damage. Thus, getting the +1 hp damage for a 16 strength requires a bow of twice-normal cost, a +3 (for 18/01 strength) is triple-normal cost, etc. Another version of this type of bow is described in Dragon #127, page 27.

Anyway, it is bollocks.

I don't know why I didn't remember this earlier, but there is an even earlier culprit in Dragon Magazine:

Issue #58 (February 1982) had two articles on bows that, while not specifically stating only composite bows could be built for strength, surely laid the foundation for many a house-rule to that effect.

Bowmanship Made More Meaningful by Carl Parlagreco gives a chart showing the normal strength ranges of bows:

Bow type ............ strength needed
_________________min__max
composite, long ..... 16 ... 18/76
composite, short .... 15 ... 18/50
long ...................... 12 ... 18/01
short ...................... 8 .... 15
crossbow, heavy .... 16 ... 18/00
crossbow, light ....... 15 ... 18/60


A Long Bow Isn't Always a Strong Bow by TSR staff from an idea by Robert Bowling says

Classifying bows – specifically the composite long bow – in terms of the strength of the bow is justified from the standpoint of realism: Bows with varying amounts of "pull" do exist.

The article then supplies a chart listing "strength needed", "poundage", "adjusted range", "adjusted 'to hit' modifier for range", and "damage adjustment per arrow" for strength ratings from 9 to 18/00 (20lb - 150lb).

Nice find Black Bat, and the timing seems more likely (as we were doing this really early in our games, 82 or 83 seems about right, plus our DM read Dragon at the time). We never allowed this for crossbows, spears etc. (unless found adventuring). I think the fact that the composite bow was listed in the weapons section of the PH for ubber gold without any obvious benefit made it a natural fit. I'm somehow opposed to doing this too broadly though. Giant daggers, giant spears, giant darts, blah. I'll probably now allow stronger crossbows to be purchased using that formula, but otherwise just give strength bonus to normal hand thrown weapons (the logic being the bow string and string support system was the culprit, otherwise you'd also need special beefy arrows). You pass a point where things get too complex.

Would you like the articles? Or do you have the Dragon CD or that issue?

BlackBat242 wrote:Would you like the articles? Or do you have the Dragon CD or that issue?

I don't have the dragon CD so much obliged.