Knights & Knaves Alehouse

EOTB wrote:...how does the gnome and halfling fighter ever manage to stay upright, or hold his ground, fighting anyone but kobolds?

How do you ever beat the giant series?

I'm reminded of the RQIII knockback rules. I ran a test combat between a troll and a human, and for the troll's first action he didn't even try to attack, he just attempted intentional knockback on the human. Running the numbers (which factor in his STR and SIZ), the troll had a 230% chance of knockback (and I mean flying through the air knockback). It would've been even worse against a hobbit.

I think the only viable answer to thing like trolls and giants in such a system is pike formations and missiles. (And magic, of course.)

Philotomy Jurament wrote:

EOTB wrote:...how does the gnome and halfling fighter ever manage to stay upright, or hold his ground, fighting anyone but kobolds?

How do you ever beat the giant series?

I'm reminded of the RQIII knockback rules. I ran a test combat between a troll and a human, and for the troll's first action he didn't even try to attack, he just attempted intentional knockback on the human. Running the numbers (which factor in his STR and SIZ), the troll had a 230% chance of knockback (and I mean flying through the air knockback). It would've been even worse against a hobbit.

I think the only viable answer to thing like trolls and giants in such a system is pike formations and missiles. (And magic, of course.)

When Grodog and I played in Jaquay's RuneQuest game at NTRPG we were attacked by some kind of rabid armadillo rodent things on the edge of a cliff. My character used his warhammer like a golf club to tee two of them over the edge. Good fun!

AxeMental wrote: I don't see this as a matter of morale, but more overall strength and weight. You could win a morale check but still loose what amounts to a pushing match (imagine a bunch of orcs pushing shields into a small group of fighters also holding up shields, and the fighters fall. The DM could figure this out by combining relative strengths and weights and figuring out some realistic % chance.

What forces the fighters back is also their desire to keep being able to swing their swords. They need a certain amount of room to make this possible (so if they are being rushed it might be the only option). Also its a measure of how quickly one fallen orcs spot is filled by another. In my mind level is also a key factor here. A more experianced fighter is going to be able to hold back monsters he kills in a single blow compared to a 1st level fighter that requires multiple rounds). In other words, 2 elf 7th level fighters would probably be able to hold a corridor from charging orcs then 2 huge half orc 1st level fighters. However, once it turned into a pushing match, the huge half orcs would have the advantage.

Also, consider the direction the bodies fall (a fighter is going to have a hard time holding the corridor if the ogre he just killed falls right were he's standing. That alone can push him back. Likewise, if the body falls inward, it might slow the ogres coming down the hall.

That is not what actually happens in combat, though, or at least so it is thought. It is not a case of individuals pushing up against one another like a rugby match, but involves space control, which means keeping your distance for fear of getting killed. In this case, retreats and push backs are chiefly a matter of morale, as one side feels as though it cannot effectively control the space between it and its adversaries. When we are talking about people simply barrelling through opponents with no regard for their own safety, then better to use some sort of overbearing rules.

IMO anyone attempting to stop fighting so they can push is likely subjecting themselves to some AOO's.

Matthew wrote:When we are talking about people simply barrelling through opponents with no regard for their own safety, then better to use some sort of overbearing rules.

And IIRC, if someone attempts to overbear an armed person, that person gets an attack roll, which, if successful, prevents the overbearing attack from taking place at all.

DungeonDork wrote:IMO anyone attempting to stop fighting so they can push is likely subjecting themselves to some AOO's.

EOTB wrote:And IIRC, if someone attempts to overbear an armed person, that person gets an attack roll, which, if successful, prevents the overbearing attack from taking place at all.

Sounds right to me:

DMG pg 73 wrote:Opponents With Weapons Used Normally: If the opponent of a grappling, pummeling or overbearing attack has a weapon, the opponent will always strike first unless the attacker has surprise. Any weapon hit does NO damage, but it does indicate that the attacker trying to grapple, pummel, or overbear has been fended or driven off, and the attack is unsuccessful. The weapon-wielder then has the opportunity to strike at the weaponless one "for real", if he or she so chooses. Surprised opponents with weapons have no chance for a fending-off strike, unless the attacker must use all surprise segments to close to grapple, pummel, or overbear.

Matthew wrote:

AxeMental wrote: I don't see this as a matter of morale, but more overall strength and weight. You could win a morale check but still loose what amounts to a pushing match (imagine a bunch of orcs pushing shields into a small group of fighters also holding up shields, and the fighters fall. The DM could figure this out by combining relative strengths and weights and figuring out some realistic % chance.

What forces the fighters back is also their desire to keep being able to swing their swords. They need a certain amount of room to make this possible (so if they are being rushed it might be the only option). Also its a measure of how quickly one fallen orcs spot is filled by another. In my mind level is also a key factor here. A more experianced fighter is going to be able to hold back monsters he kills in a single blow compared to a 1st level fighter that requires multiple rounds). In other words, 2 elf 7th level fighters would probably be able to hold a corridor from charging orcs then 2 huge half orc 1st level fighters. However, once it turned into a pushing match, the huge half orcs would have the advantage.

Also, consider the direction the bodies fall (a fighter is going to have a hard time holding the corridor if the ogre he just killed falls right were he's standing. That alone can push him back. Likewise, if the body falls inward, it might slow the ogres coming down the hall.

That is not what actually happens in combat, though, or at least so it is thought. It is not a case of individuals pushing up against one another like a rugby match, but involves space control, which means keeping your distance for fear of getting killed. In this case, retreats and push backs are chiefly a matter of morale, as one side feels as though it cannot effectively control the space between it and its adversaries. When we are talking about people simply barrelling through opponents with no regard for their own safety, then better to use some sort of overbearing rules.

OK I see where your coming from now. In reverse of the original example, if a group of PCs are trying to get into a room guarded by a couple orcs say, then yes, you can check moral of the guards to see if they don't freak and move backward or flee. But I don't equate morale with "feeling one does not effectively control the space" I see it as feeling overwhelmed "I'm outnumbered and I'll eventually be killed". The orcs in this example could be controlling the space fine, but notice an MU casting in the back and simply bolt. Also, I'm not a fan of checking morale for PCs. That seems a bit overhanded as DM. Also, you have to consider size and weight (your morale idea wouldn't do that).

There are several morale results before "running away", including "fall back fighting". What we are talking about here is certainly this least of morale failures and it is the result of feeling a position is becoming too difficult to defend. Unless there is a random check of some sort, then player characters can just behave like robots and never make an involuntary retreat due to fear. I am not a fan of making player characters test morale, but if the aim is to create a chance of involuntary retreat due to overwhelming enemy forces then there is not much in the way of recourse.

Matthew wrote:There are several morale results before "running away", including "fall back fighting". What we are talking about here is certainly this least of morale failures and it is the result of feeling a position is becoming too difficult to defend. Unless there is a random check of some sort, then player characters can just behave like robots and never make an involuntary retreat due to fear. I am not a fan of making player characters test morale, but if the aim is to create a chance of involuntary retreat due to overwhelming enemy forces then there is not much in the way of recourse.

Just so I understand Matt, you would consider size (a like number of kolbolds would have less of a chance then a like number of orc due to size)?

Off topic a bit, Matt. I know you and Stuart are into re-enactments. Do you guys ever have formations of locked shields push against other formations (what boils down to a temporary shoving match shield to shield with attacks by sword when possible) or does that not really happen in RL combat much (or ever)? I remember reading that Roman soldiers used to use their short sword (gladius?) thrusting it out from behind their shields any time they'd see an opening, so I figured that was something common. The fact that 1E doesn't address it always said to me that Gygax was intending that sort of highly organized combat to be rare (probably thinking the humanoids just weren't organized enough and PCs parties too small to do it effectively) combat involved simple melee, charging and grappling only (no controlled push threw). But yeah, I could imagine the formation below (if these were well organized and equipped orcs with superior armor and large shields) being something that might push threw a hallway held by a couple fighters (imagine if you had it half as wide and simply walking forward without really worrying about attacking as spear men in the next rank take care of that.


I might be wrong, but I think Gord had to deal with something like that once (surrounded by shields) when the guard came to collect him in Greyhawk (was it the Black Guard) and I think they scryed his location with a crystal ball or something similar.

AxeMental wrote: Just so I understand Matt, you would consider size (a like number of kolbolds would have less of a chance then a like number of orc due to size)?

I would expect hit dice to be a factor, which is usually related to monster size.

AxeMental wrote: Off topic a bit, Matt. I know you and Stuart are into re-enactments. Do you guys ever have formations of locked shields push against other formations (what boils down to a temporary shoving match shield to shield with attacks by sword when possible) or does that not really happen in RL combat much (or ever)? I remember reading that Roman soldiers used to use their short sword (gladius?) thrusting it out from behind their shields any time they'd see an opening, so I figured that was something common. The fact that 1E doesn't address it always said to me that Gygax was intending that sort of highly organized combat to be rare (probably thinking the humanoids just weren't organized enough and PCs parties too small to do it effectively) combat involved simple melee, charging and grappling only (no controlled push threw). But yeah, I could imagine the formation below (if these were well organized and equipped orcs with superior armor and large shields) being something that might push threw a hallway held by a couple fighters (imagine if you had it half as wide and simply walking forward without really worrying about attacking as spear men in the next rank take care of that.

It is hotly contested whether armies ever pushed up against one another in a shoving match. On the one hand, the Iliad describes something like that happening, but on the other it is not otherwise described in historical accounts or depicted on period images. The biggest argument against it is a sense of total impracticality for fighting when men with lethal weapons are close enough to grapple one another. The Romans specifically fought with plenty of space between individuals (less so in in the late republic and early empire), so a sort of shield wall with blades occasionally flashing out does not fit the picture really. Although the Roman "turtle" looks like a great idea, the truth is that it was not a battlefield formation and only used at sieges, where it was a good way of resisting enemy missiles.

AxeMental wrote: I might be wrong, but I think Gord had to deal with something like that once (surrounded by shields) when the guard came to collect him in Greyhawk (was it the Black Guard) and I think they scryed his location with a crystal ball or something similar.

Could be; never read any Gord myself.

Late to the party here, but if I may -

in AD&D anyone within 10' of another can make melee attacks, yes? Close and strike blows? And aren't those abstract events? e.g., the dagger-wielding thief doesn't strike one thrust, he slashes, cuts, parries and so on over the course of a full minute. A battle-ax wielding fighter's 6 points of damage dealt in a round might include a couple of blows with the haft, a quick thrust and a slash with the blade.

So driving someone back might happen multiple times in a round. If an intelligent enemy realizes that to fall back further is to give ground to an opponent bent on chasing them down and gutting them, then they probably won't fall back more than that 10' or so feet.

Likewise an unintelligent opponent just won't yield ground - it's hungry, or enraged or it's fear response to danger is making it want to run past (through) you.

Just some thoughts.

I would simulate this by having whoever won the round gain the position. If an orc or whatever hits one of the fighters and both the fighters miss the orc then the orc just pushed the one he hit back and advanced to his spot.Next round the lone fighter left in position has two orcs to deal with. If two orcs hit and both fighters miss then they lost the door.

Cheers!

MJW