Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Can someone please walk me through the charging rules as you understand them?

Say, for the purpose of example, a party of low level adventurers rounds a corner and meets a group of goblins. Kleegon the dwarven fighter acts first and charges with his battle axe.

If the opponent is to far away to attack in melee (more than 10'), there are two ways to close with him.

1. Carefully and cautious, thus retaining your shield and dex bonus, but unable to attack.

2. Give em a battle cry and charge into fray. The ferocity of your charge gives you a bonus of +2 to your attack for that first swing (but not subsequent attacks). However your bloodlust prevents you from taking precautions to defend yourself, and thus you lose any shield bonus (and dex too I believe). Also, if the enemy has a chance to set spears (or just uses them normally, along with other weapons longer than your own), they can attack first.

Besides that, the only question I really have is how far can you travel per segment. Say you have surprise, but the opponent is 30' away. He is too far away to engage in that surprise segment, and the only way to reach him is too charge him. How far can you make it?

If you're charging indoors your movement rate is doubled - so if your move rate is 6" you can charge am opponent up to 120' distant, and will cover 12' per segment of movement. Charging outdoors the amount of increased movement depends on whether you have 2 legs or 4(+). I don't remember either amount, but they're spelled out straightforwardly in the DMG.

Also, you can only charge once per Turn (10 Combat Rounds), so if you charge an opponent, defeat him, and the combat is still going but all opponents are more than 10' distant you can't charge into that second melee unless it's been at least 9 rounds since your first charge. Otherwise you have to spend a full round closing into that second melee. Also, at least implicitly, you shouldn't charge at an opponent more than a full charge-move away, because you can't charge for more than a single round. So you move normally until you're within charging range, then charge the last round.

Combatants do not lose their shield bonus for charging. They either lose their dexterity bonus or take a plus one penalty to armour class, whichever is worse.

In terms of action order, it is possible to come up with numerous interpretations, but basically the party that won the initiative acts first and the party that lost may take some sort of action in the interim if the game master sees fit (such as discharging missile weapons or setting spears against a charge). At the point of contact initiative is not consulted to determine who strikes first, rather it is a function of weapon length. So a character charging with a two-handed sword goes before an enemy with a long sword and after an enemy with a spear.

Say, for the purpose of example, a party of low level adventurers rounds a corner and meets a group of goblins. Kleegon the dwarven fighter acts first and charges with his battle axe.

Here's how I might run such an encounter.

The Party:
Kleegon the Dwarven Fighter 3 (battle axe, plate mail)
Garin Dell, Dwarven Fighter 1(hvy. crossbow, hammer, plate mail)
Aquel of the Hills, Human Fighter 2 (spear, short sword, mail + shield)
Yod the Calvous, Human Magic User 2 (dagger)
Arius, Servant of the Secret Fane, Human Cleric 1 (mace, plate mail)

The two dwarves are up front, Aquel and Yod in the second rank, and Arius is bringing up the rear.

The Goblins:
A patrol of six goblins with spears and short swords, in leather armor.

Surprise:
No one is surprised.

Distance:
The groups are 80' apart in a 10' wide passage that is lit by torches in brackets on the walls.

Initiative:
Party rolls 6, Goblins rolls 2.
Party has the initiative.

I always ask for actions at this point, with the winning side declaring their intended actions last. Since the goblins lost initiative, the DM says their action is to form up to receive a possible charge, and issue a challenge.

The players declare their intended actions:

Party Actions:

• Kleegon will charge. He's wearing plate mail, so his charging movement rate is 120' -- he can reach the goblins this round.
• Garin Dell will fire his crossbow.
• Aquel will charge, throwing his spear when he gets close enough. He's wearing mail, so his charging movement rate indoors is 180' -- he can reach the goblins.
• Yod will advance to get within range of his sleep spell, but does not want to enter melee engagement.
• Arius will advance beside Yod.
• Garin Dell says that after he fires his crossbow he will move up with Arius and Yod.

DM adjudication:

The goblin patrol's excited challenge to he PCs is lost in the noise of Kleegon's battle cry. Garin Dell fires his crossbow as Kleegon starts running. Garin Dell is 80' away, which is short range for a heavy crossbow. He rolls an 18, which is a hit. The DM randomly determines which goblin is struck: it is Goblin #3, in the front rank, who takes 4 points of damage. Goblin #3 had 5 hp, so he's reduced to 1 hp.

Since both Kleegon and Aquel are charging, initiative does not determine who strikes first: weapon length does. However, Aquel is hurling his spear as he comes, and that will go first. (I allow axes, hammers, spears, and javelins to be hurled during a charge. Similarly, a charged formation may hurl weapons before the charge arrives, but in this case the goblins choose to set their spears, rather than throw them.) Aquel rolls a 19 at his Goblin #2, in the front rank. The spear does 6 points of damage to the goblin's 2 hp; Goblin #2 is skewered and goes down with a cry.

A few moments after the goblin goes down, Aquel and Kleegan smash into their line. Kleegan's axe is shorter than the goblin spears, and Aquel is now using his short sword, so the goblins go first. (Technically, Aquel could reach the line before Kleegan, but we'll assume that he paces the dwarf.)

The DM rules that only the front rank of goblins may use their spears (if the enemies were better disciplined and better trained, the DM might allow first and second ranks to attack with set spears, but the goblins are neither, and just had their formation disrupted, anyway). Since one of the front rank is dead, that's only two attacks. Goblin #1 attacks Aquel, and Goblin #3 attacks Kleegan.

Goblin #1 rolls a 6, which misses (even with the AC penalty for the charge). Goblin #3 rolls a 12, which also fails to hit. The PCs may now attack. Aquel is 2nd level. He gets two attacks against enemies of less than one HD. Kleegan is 3rd level and gets three.

Aquel's rolls are 13 + 2 (from charging) and 13. Kleegan rolls 19 + 2 (from charging), 7, and 3. Both Aquel's attacks hit. His first attack is against Goblin #1, and he does 3 points of damage. Goblin #1 had 3 hp, and goes down to thrust. Aquel's second target is Goblin #6, who takes 4 points of damage to his 4 hit points: he also goes down. Only Kleegan's first attack hits, and he does 3 points of damage to Goblin #3, who was hit by the crossbow, earlier, and only has one point. Goblin #3 goes down, as well.

Yod, Aruis, and Garin Dell have advanced to within 40' of the melee.

The round ends with Aquel and Garin Dell engaged with the two surviving goblins (#s 4 and 5). The DM decides this round has completely broken the morale of the goblins. He rolls a for them, individually, to see if they have the presence of mind to surrender or if they panic and try to flee. The rolls indicate both goblins are panicked and will try to flee.

The DM asks for initiative rolls. The goblins get a 3 and the PCs get a 4. The PCs win, again. The DM announces that the goblins are running.

• Kleegan announces that he will attack the fleeing goblins.
• Aquel announces that he will attack the fleeing goblins.
• Yod was going to cast sleep, but decides not to waste it on two goblins.
• Arius says he will stay beside the magic user, and will be watching for goblin reinforcements, including from behind.
• Garin Dell will start reloading his heavy crossbow.

Aquel gets two free attacks on the fleeing goblins. Kleegan gets three. The attacks are at a +4 to hit the fleeing enemies. Aquel rolls 16 + 4 and 3 + 4. Kleegan rolls 17 + 4, 14 + 4, and 5 + 4. Aquel hits once, and Kleegan twice.

Aquel hits Goblin #5 for 5 points of damage. Kleegan his Goblin #4 for 3 points and 8 points. Both goblins are slain in mid-stride as they seek to flee.

One thing I do is only use charge rules if its an organized defense. Otherwise the walls I think are too fluid to use rules related to weapon length.

I think the best BTB combat advice is on pg. 105 of the Players Handbook, under "First Strike:"

AD&D Players Handbook pg. 105 wrote:The 1 minute melee round assumes much activity -- rushes, retreats, feints, parries, checks, and so on. Once during this period each combatant has the opportunity to get a real blow in. Usually this is indicated by initiative, but sometimes other circumstances will prevail. High level fighters get multiple blows per round, so they will usually strike first and last in a melee round. Slowed creatures always strike last. Hasted/speeded creatures strike first. A solid formation of creatures with long weapons will strike opponents with shorter weapons first, a rushing opponent will be struck first by a pole arm/spear set in its path. Your DM will adjudicate such matters with common sense. When important single combats occur, then dexterities and weapon factors will be used to determine the order and number of strikes in a round.

I find several worthwhile points in that paragraph:

1. Initiative is primarily about striking blows in a melee engagement.
2. Sometimes (e.g., when the actions go beyond the bounds of straightforward "strike a blow in melee") the initiative rolls shouldn't be used to determine the sequence of actions.
3. In those circumstances, the DM resolves the actions using common sense.
4. Not all the AD&D rules need to apply to every combat

Also notable is the mention of "a solid formation with long weapons" striking first in a charge, which agrees with Axe's ruling in his post, above.

I apply weapon length in almost every case; it is the counterbalance to weapon speed and the only thing that really makes taking a spear in addition to a short sword a good idea.

Matthew wrote:I apply weapon length in almost every case; it is the counterbalance to weapon speed and the only thing that really makes taking a spear in addition to a short sword a good idea.

FWIW, I also apply it in all charge situations against an aware/ready enemy. But I wouldn't argue with a DM that chose to only apply it when there was a formation. I think there's a lot of wiggle room in the rules.

I'm a little surprised that no one commented on the "hurled weapon during charge" ruling in my example. (That is, Aquel threw his spear during his charge AND got his melee attack routine with his short sword at the end of his charge.)

Philotomy Jurament wrote: I'm a little surprised that no one commented on the "hurled weapon during charge" ruling in my example. (That is, Aquel threw his spear during his charge AND got his melee attack routine with his short sword at the end of his charge.)

Obviously not reading close enough. Let me be the first to say, I do not like it.

I would rule that, since the fire rate of the spear is only 1, that that is the only attack Aquel will get this round (charging does NOT give extra attacks, only a +2 to hit). If he had thrown a dagger he would get 1 attack with the sword. Even though darts have a ROF of 3, he would still only get 1 attack with the sword if he had thrown one of them (and no sword attacks if he threw 2, as that is over half the # of allowable attacks with darts).

Even at his lowly level I would, however, allow him to draw the sword before reaching melee distance... but he cannot use it to attack in the charging round.

Of course, he would need to roll under his dex (plus his level) on a D20 in order to draw the sword safely while sprinting. If he had a dex of 13, he would need a 15 or less on the dice (13 + 2nd level). A 20 would fail no matter the level.

Failure would result in either:
1. Sword drawn but temporarily caught on armor or equipment, automatic loss of initiative for the next round.
2. Sword not successfully drawn, loss of initiative and a -2 to hit next round (drawing sword & attacking the same round).
3. Dropped sword.
4. Injured self while drawing sword, half-damage to self (stabbed leg, sliced the other arm, etc). Make second dex roll to maintain hold on sword (fail = drop).


Were he 7th level or higher I would allow him to attack with the sword in the charging round as well as throwing the spear.

Heh. That's more like it!

I allow combatants involved in a charge (charging or receiving) to hurl a weapon and participate in the impact combat. In effect, I grant the possibility of an extra/hurled attack to both attacker and defender in a charge. Not strictly BTB, of course, but not without some sort of precedent, either.

This was very, very helpful. Thank you everyone especially Philotomy.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:Heh. That's more like it!

I allow combatants involved in a charge (charging or receiving) to hurl a weapon and participate in the impact combat. In effect, I grant the possibility of an extra/hurled attack to both attacker and defender in a charge. Not strictly BTB, of course, but not without some sort of precedent, either.

I'd role initiative at this point (rather then just let missiles fly), otherwise how do you determine which missile hits first (attacker or defender) and how do you penalize those that wish to do so (they must give up some charging distance/speed, or some focus compared to those who don't do this, right? Same goes with those defending (preparing their weapons). Now, if the attackers are clearing a huge amount of distance, then yes I'd allow all the defenders to get a shot off (or more if distance allows). Likewise those charging wishing to throw a missile, simply fall behind those that do not (theres plenty of visual examples of this in movies, cartoons, etc). This might be made up for by extraordinary dex, or the entire charging party slowing down a bit (giving the defenders perhaps more time to hurl or fire missiles) and if they slow down too much then they are basically no longer charging. I'd bet many a brave charge IRL has turned into a missile skirmish doing this sort of thing.

Think about it: charging orc has to find a target (while going full speed), pause a moment to throw, then prepare his long weapon to attack. Or the defender has to put down his long pole arm, take out his missile, fire, and then pick it back up and regain his readyness (compared to those that continued to focus).

I'd probably make those who throw/fire some sort of missile during charge go last automatically or simply not be part of the charge at all (rewarding those who kept in position).
Just another reason I'm not a fan of the charging rules.