Knights & Knaves Alehouse

My group is considering a switch from LL+AEC to AD&D.

So, I have been re-reading the combat mechanics for AD&D, specifically initiative and segments. I have also been consulting OSRIC for better clarity.

Can someone direct me to a good spelled-out example, or, alternatively, flesh out one for me and I could follow up with questions. Thank you.

What questions do you have so far?

ADDICT is quite a good one to read through: http://knights-n-knaves.com/dmprata/ADDICT.pdf (leads to PDF download).

It's not rocket science. Just keep 3 dice recording your turn, round and segments. Count down initiative with other dice.

So based on the below only ranged attacks receive the dex adjustment to initiative? How are melee attacks adjusted?

VI. Determine initiative for the round by rolling a d6 for each side. The higher of the two rolls is said to possess the initiative for that melee round.64
A. Each participant does not make a separate initiative roll. However, the Dexterity Attacking adjustment is added to (or subtracted from) the initiative roll for each missile-firing combatant on an individual basis.65
1. Initiative bonuses do not apply to characters carrying more than “light gear” (12” base movement).66
2. Initiative penalties always apply.

Yeah, missiles only. Melee attacks are only affected by the dex reaction/attacking adj. through the reduction in number of surprise segments; nothing to a melee initiative roll.

A lot of people forget about the reaction/attacking adj. going away if people carry too much weight.

Ok. Can you explain that in more detail?

kilted-yaksman wrote:Ok. Can you explain that in more detail?

kilted-yaksman wrote:So based on the below only ranged attacks receive the dex adjustment to initiative? How are melee attacks adjusted?

VI. Determine initiative for the round by rolling a d6 for each side. The higher of the two rolls is said to possess the initiative for that melee round.64

One d6 roll per side.

kilted-yaksman wrote:A. Each participant does not make a separate initiative roll. However, the Dexterity Attacking adjustment is added to (or subtracted from) the initiative roll for each missile-firing combatant on an individual basis.65

Use the same result of a side's single d6 for each member of that side. If, and only if, a member is using a missile weapon, then adjust the d6 result by any dexterity adjustment that member may have. Do this for every member on a side that is using a missile weapon.

kilted-yaksman wrote:1. Initiative bonuses do not apply to characters carrying more than “light gear” (12” base movement).66

I doubt this needs further explanation.

kilted-yaksman wrote:2. Initiative penalties always apply.

This would be penalties assigned to the entire side, or to individual members of the side.

Oh, also note that OSRIC initiative is not btb 1e initiative.

The AD&D initiative rules are the Kobayshi Maru of AD&D. There is no "right" way to do it, there's your solution.

(Thanks, Kyle.)

kilted-yaksman wrote:Ok. Can you explain that in more detail?

As an example to what TRP said, let's say you have two parties - A and B. Each party has a bowman, but party A's bowman is a dextrous elf with a dex of 17 while party B's bowman is fat-fingers freddie with a dexterity of 5.

So if both sides roll a "3" for initiative, and neither bowman is more than lightly encumbered (movement rate of less than 12 by either armor worn or total weight carried), the elf goes before everyone else on the 1st segment (3 - 2). He also gets a +2 bonus to his to-hit roll (but not damage roll).

In segment 3 the melee attacks go off. I'm leaving spell casting out of the example, and also presuming neither party is surprised.

In segment 4 fat fingers freddie finally gets the chance to go because his dex of 5 gives him a reaction/attacking adjustment of -1. So his intiative is worsened from 3rd segment to 4th, and his to hit roll with his bow also gets a -1; dude should be swinging a club because in melee he would be unpenalized - attacking on the 3rd segment and with a normal to hit roll.

Now, if the elf and freddie were wearing metal armor that reduced the movement rate to less than 12 (let's say, plate mail with a move of 6), the elf would now attack on the 3rd segment along with his mace-swinging buddies - his bonus is cancelled because of all the crap he's wearing! But Freddie still goes on segment 4 because his penalty, in essence, removes the upside of wearing light armor but is unaffected by wearing heavier armor.

You'll also have those who really prefer not to track segments unless it's necessary for a spell, which works fine too - they would just be assigning an order of action without worrying if bowfire actually happened in second 6 or second 36 of the round. I do track segments, because there are enough instances of charging where I need to know how far someone has moved before something else happens, that I just do it all the time.

TRP wrote:Oh, also note that OSRIC initiative is not btb 1e initiative.

HAH!

Well....OSRIC initiative is as BtB as anything else (deducted from evidence in the core books, argued by SKA initially (vs. Storm Crow and ScottyG for the most part), eventually confirmed by EGG at DF in some detail, as I recall...for what thats worth as EGG changed his opinion often) but yeah, there's simply not enough evidence to pin 1E AD&Ds initiative system down for 100% certain. You can say though: side A vs side B, both sides role d6, high role goes first. Thats probably enough for most people.

thedungeondelver wrote:The AD&D initiative rules are the Kobayshi Maru of AD&D. There is no "right" way to do it, there's your solution.

You just made my year with that line. Thank you. ;D

AxeMental wrote:
Well....OSRIC initiative is as BtB as anything else .. blah blah

I was only informing the op that there are differences between btb 1e and OSRIC, and I wasn't looking to stir up that ridiculous debate.

The differences are so small, however, that the players would probably never note that difference.

thedungeondelver wrote:The AD&D initiative rules are the Kobayshi Maru of AD&D. There is no "right" way to do it, there's your solution.

(Thanks, Kyle.)

Yup.