Parry

[T. Foster]

No, there is no mention of that in the rule books, though the cavalier class as it originally appeared in Dragon had a nifty parry bonus.

I don't remember that. Care to quote or summarize?

[Matthew]

I don't remember that. Care to quote or summarize?

I do not have a copy of the magazine to hand, but here is a quote where I summarised the advantages on my Silver Blade Adventures blog, I am assuming it is accurate:

The cavalier class was introduced in Dragon #72, able to parry “more effectively” so that all of his bonuses to hit could be used as a penalty against enemy attacks. This class could also make a parry against a second opponent using his shield, which imposed a penalty equal to its defensive value, but prevented it from being used for the rest of the round."

[ScottyG]

The UA cavalier has a special parry ability, but I don't know if it's the same as the Dragon version.

[grodog]

Dragon 72 parry rules for cavalier:

Weapons skill also enables the cavalier to parry more effectively than other sorts of fighters. Should a cavalier choose to parry rather than attack, all of the cavalier’s “to hit” bonuses (from strength, specialization, magical sword, etc.) can be used to subtract from an attacker’s “to hit” die roll(s). Of course, only one attacker can be so affected. However, the cavalier can also use his or her shield to parry attacks from a second opponent, reducing that opponent’s “to hit” die roll(s) by -1 plus any magical bonuses of the shield, also expressed as a negative number. Thus, a +1 magic shield could be used to parry so that “to hit” die roll(s) from an attacker were reduced by -2. By weapon and shield parrying, a cavalier can seek to thwart the attacks of two opponents. If a third is also attacking, such attacks will then be made as if the cavalier had no shield, since that instrument is being employed in defensive parrying. If the cavalier performs one or two parries, he or she cannot also attack, even though he or she may otherwise be entitled to more than 1 attack per round.

UA rule:

A cavalier’s expertise in weapons allows the cavalier to parry with
weapons of proficiency more effectively than fighters can. Should a cavalier choose to parry rather than attack, all of the cavalier’s “to hit” bonuses (including those due to strength, magic, and weapon of choice) can be subtracted from one attacker’s die rolls. A parrying
cavalier may use his or her shield to parry a second opponent’s attack; a shield parry reduces the attacker’s roll by 1, and by a further 1 for every “plus” of the shield, if it is magical. If the cavalier is using a shield parry as well as a weapon parry, any further attackers beyond the second may ignore the shield bonus in determining their chances
“to hit.” If a cavalier performs one or two parries, the cavalier cannot attack in that round, even if he or she is capable of making multiple attacks in a single round.

[T. Foster]

I actually like that rule (which I had completely forgotten about - shows how many cavaliers I've ever seen in actual play, I guess) and like it being a class-ability limited to cavaliers - helping set them apart as having a more complex and sophisticated style of fighting than standard fighters. With knowledge of this rule, I'm more inclined to let the PH parrying rule stand as-is and tell any player that wants to use those kinds of tactics that "if you want to do that kind of fancy-pants fighting you should've played a cavalier."

[Matthew]

To be honest, I am not much of a fan of either, as it just creates more of the "unhittable armour class" conundrum, which is why repeating twenties were included on the combat tables.

[AxeMental]

It's buried in the PH (of all places) - by forgoing your attack for the round you're able to apply your Strength-based "to hit" bonus to your AC. This is widely considered to be a pretty worthless tactic (totally worthless if your strength is less than 17) and I've never once seen it used in actual play, but it's there as an option. A house-rule I've seen suggested somewhere (DF?) is to use not just the strength bonus but the level-based bonus (i.e. the difference between the character's THAC0 and that of a 0-level Normal Man) as well (so a Hero with str 17 would get a +5 AC bonus (1 from Str, 4 from THAC0) when parrying). That would definitely make it a more attractive option.

I suppose if your the guy with no silver or fire, do have a mega 17-18 strength, and up against a lycanthrope etc. and were just waiting for the others in your party to take it out (that had the weapons to do so). I'm going to start using this with my NPCs who occasionally have high strength but we don't bother outfitting properly with silver or oil etc.

[sepulchre]

Worth looking back at this thread too: http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/ ... =overpower

[rogatny]

Yes, the BtB rule is a subtraction from your AC based on bonus to hit due to STR. So, yes, it's just not going to do you any good unless you have a 17 or better strength. The thing to remember is that one's ability to avoid killing blows due to skill at arms is subsumed into the abstract nature of hit points. The minute long combat round assumes you're already doing quite a bit of parrying. As your level goes up, your hit points go up, and your ability to parry goes up. It's just all abstracted into hit points. Thus only those who have advantages to melee fighting outside of one's skill (i.e. raw ability, measured in Str) get any further bonus.

That's the rationale behind it. I could definitely see someone wanting to houserule something a bit more effective to give more tactical options during melee combat.

That's what I wrote in the previous thread. I stand by it.

[WSmith]

For me to keep a simple summary for my comprehension based on what is posted here, would the parry be:

1. Non-Cavaliers: Your STR bonus is subtracted from your attackers die roll for the next round. You cannot attack.

2. Cavaliers:
a. all “to hit” bonuses (strength, magic, and weapon of choice) can be subtracted from one attacker’s die rolls.
b. A parrying cavalier may use his or her shield to parry a second opponent’s attack; a shield parry reduces the attacker’s roll by 1, (AND ONLY 1) and by a further 1 for every “plus” of the shield, if it is magical.
c. If the cavalier is using a shield parry as well as a weapon parry, any further attackers beyond the second may ignore the shield bonus in determining their chances
“to hit.”
d. If a cavalier performs one or two parries, the cavalier cannot attack in that round, even if he or she is capable of making multiple attacks in a single round.

Is that correct?

[Clangador]

I have always wondered why that parry rule is in the back of the PHB. It has always been one of those WTF moments.

[Matthew]

For me to keep a simple summary for my comprehension based on what is posted here, would the parry be:

1. Non-Cavaliers: Your STR bonus is subtracted from your attackers die roll for the next round. You cannot attack.

2. Cavaliers:
a. all “to hit” bonuses (strength, magic, and weapon of choice) can be subtracted from one attacker’s die rolls.
b. A parrying cavalier may use his or her shield to parry a second opponent’s attack; a shield parry reduces the attacker’s roll by 1, (AND ONLY 1) and by a further 1 for every “plus” of the shield, if it is magical.
c. If the cavalier is using a shield parry as well as a weapon parry, any further attackers beyond the second may ignore the shield bonus in determining their chances
“to hit.”
d. If a cavalier performs one or two parries, the cavalier cannot attack in that round, even if he or she is capable of making multiple attacks in a single round.

Is that correct?

Yes, I believe so.