Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Yeah, but that ideal situation is going to be almost as rare as the successful surpise ambush situation. You could push those 'possible' situations up to a high level bow specialist in point blank range in magical elfin chain using a magic bow and arrows that take strength into account in a successful ambust situation firing off 24 arrows doing something like 2d6+10 points of damage a pop (528 possible points of damage in 4 segments). Realistcally, 2 or 4 arrows per surprise situation are going to account for the vast majority of surprise situations.

Wait, that's not even right, it would be 36 arrows for a high level specialist with three attacks around with 4 surprise segemnts in a optimal surprise situation for a theoretical possible max 792 points of damage.

I haven't ever seen anyone carry more than 1 quiver of arrows (20 max).

Not to say that it doesn't happen...

just number crunching.

ScottyG wrote:just number crunching.

Of course! Not trying to be combative, just playing devil's advocate.


And of course, after you get that volley off you have to roll for arrow breakage!

Nothing has ever come close in almost 30 years of UA gaming. And I'm sure I'd rule that such a super demi-human feat would not be possible without the aid of speed enhancing magic. Even the DMG surprise RoF is questionable BUT I have to remember that because of the assumed abstact nature of D&D combat, some of these things aren't supposed to be realistic, just representative of the advantage of the situation. I'd have to weigh that and adjudicate if it ever comes up.

Magic or the PC has to be named Legolas.

and in a scene directed by Peter Jackson.

ScottyG wrote:Yeah, but that ideal situation is going to be almost as rare as the successful surpise ambush situation. You could push those 'possible' situations up to a high level bow specialist in point blank range in magical elfin chain using a magic bow and arrows that take strength into account in a successful ambust situation firing off 24 arrows doing something like 2d6+10 points of damage a pop (528 possible points of damage in 4 segments). Realistcally, 2 or 4 arrows per surprise situation are going to account for the vast majority of surprise situations.

It's not that unusual - using the DMG stat-rolling methods and considering the elf racial +1 bonus to Dex a score of 16+ for an elf isn't too unlikely. And given their 4 in 6 surprise chance (with the Dex reaction bonus eliminating some/most/all mutual surprise situations) getting 3 or 4 segments of surprise isn't going to be that rare of an occurrence. Sure the 4 in 6 surprise chance only applies when the elf is alone or in the company of other elves (or halflings), but because it's such a big bonus, smart players will contrive to maximize it.

In a game I ran a few years ago the party had 2 elves - a fighter/mage and a thief - who figured this out. The former had a 17 Dex and a bow (the latter had, IIRC, 14 Dex and a sling). SOP became to send these two 120' or so ahead of the rest of the party as scouts. They were both in leather armor and were relying on infravision so they had the 4 in 6 surprise chance; the fighter had a +2 reaction bonus so under normal circumstances he was never surprised. The idea was that if they ran into trouble they would flee (at 12" move rate) back to the main party, but because they so often had surprise and the fighter was so deadly with his bow that rarely even became necessary: they encounter 8 goblins, they roll a 1 for surprise, the goblins roll a 3, so the goblins are surprised 2 segments against the thief and 3 segments against the fighter. Between the 6 arrows (each with a +3 to hit between the Dex and racial bonus) and 2 sling stones there's a fair chance all 8 goblins will be dead before they ever get a chance to roll initiative, and even if not they'll almost certainly have suffered enough losses to have to check morale immediately (in which case they'll likely be shot down as they flee). Replace those 8 goblins with pretty much anything that's both a reasonably balanced low-level encounter and doesn't have an enhanced surprise chance and the result is the same -- there's a good chance the 2 elves can end the encounter (or at least put the odds significantly in their favor) before the monsters ever get a chance to react. This didn't happen every encounter - sometimes they did have to flee, and one time they even got caught in an ambush by some ghouls and almost got wiped out - and as they got higher level and encountered monsters with more HD or in larger numbers (what works against 8 goblins doesn't work as well against 8 gnolls, or 25 goblins) this wouldn't have worked as well, but while the party was 1st-2nd level it did happen at least once or twice per session.

Note: I'm not complaining about this, or claiming it's a flaw in the game. I actually assume it was intentional and think it's a pretty cool "easter egg" - something not immediately obvious but that tactical-minded players will be able to pick up on. And yes in order to get to this point the player of the elf had to make conscious decisions and recognize the value of putting his high stat into Dex instead of Str or Int (thus limiting his ultimate level advancement), had to be willing to accept a lower AC by wearing leather armor, and had to be careful not to carry so much gear as to encumber himself (and lose the Dex reaction bonus) - if he'd had a 13 Dex and been wearing chainmail this tactic wouldn't have worked at all - but I'm sure that player felt those sacrifices were all worthwhile.

PatW wrote:Is it by-the-book to rule magic arrows as broken on a hit? I've never let them be recycled.

I had to check this out the other month. DMG, p.169: "Magic arrows which miss their target are 50% likely to be broken or otherwise rendered useless. All which hit are destroyed."

Trent, I agree, I don’t think it’s a flaw; I have no complaints with the rule. As a DM, one of things I enjoy most about the game is seeing the players use their resources and tactics to overcome the challenges I throw at them.

DungeonDork wrote:Magic or the PC has to be named Legolas.

ScottyG wrote:and in a scene directed by Peter Jackson.

Sad that you should forget Crow from Hawk the Slayer. And he was jumping over a log at the time.

rredmond wrote:

DungeonDork wrote:Magic or the PC has to be named Legolas.

ScottyG wrote:and in a scene directed by Peter Jackson.

Sad that you should forget Crow from Hawk the Slayer. And he was jumping over a log at the time.

I've never been able to find that movie. Haen't seen it

Has the repeating bow, and repeating crossbow, but I'll look for the jumping over the log scene. These are classic though:

WHOAH. Could YouTube have the whole freakin' movie??