Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I was wondering if Gygax (or anyone from that period of early TSR) created revved up versions of giant class, lizard men or the like? For instance, Dungeon Delver created black orcs, kind of a subrace or something, which worked very well (I think thats what he called them) with more HD and damage. Anyhow, was wondering if any of the classic modules includes something like this?
Its tricky business fiddling with the classic monsters, and I could see this coming off as hokey or stupid (kinda the effect of 3E with monsters having PC classes).

Jacquays created super gnolls.

My experience from working with and talking to Gary is that he hated the idea of the game becoming stale, but he was much more prone to invent something new than to rev up the basic humanoids.
And as a player, I understand slogging through the humanoids tribes at low level is sometimes a tedious necessity, but the last thing I want is to keep slogging through supped up versions of them at higher levels.
Encountering a few exceptional specimens is one thing, but the focus of the campaign should shift.

ScottyG wrote:My experience from working with and talking to Gary is that he hated the idea of the game becoming stale, but he was much more prone to invent something new than to rev up the basic humanoids.
And as a player, I understand slogging through the humanoids tribes at low level is sometimes a tedious necessity, but the last thing I want is to keep slogging through supped up versions of them at higher levels.
Encountering a few exceptional specimens is one thing, but the focus of the campaign should shift.

Yeah, when I'm playing I'm glad when you get to that point around level 5 where the B2-esque hordes of humanoids finally fall by the wayside (except for the occasional big-ass melee like WG4) and would actively dislike the idea of continuing that dynamic indefinitely - still battling hordes of kobolds at level 8, only now they're all 5 HD kobolds or whatever.

Agree with Foster and ScottyG. One of the biggest flavor problems with 3+e is that you never really "graduate" from the humanoids. They get bigger with you. It's one of several reasons that the latter versions don't have the same kind of campaign arc that earlier editions do.

In other words, trolls and giants are your revved up humanoids.

That said, using the spell-casting rules from the DMG is a good way to spice the little buggers up.

Thanks for posting that Scotty. That was my assumption based on how the MM was done, glad to here it confirmed.

To pull this off it has to be masterfully done (DD managed to make it fit that early Gygax vibe).
The key is to make it basically a new race (albiet a subrace) and a one shot thing (more or less).
The difference needs to also be more about its appearance and vibe then any real powers (a bit tougher or a bit weaker).

I asked Gary this directly once; he said he did occasionally surprise his players with the 'usual' humanoids having more hit dice, damage bonuses, etc. He didn't seem opposed to the idea at all, but I didn't get the impression he did so with any regularity.

Also, (trying to remember a 10-year old email exchange) I think he said he gave the players visual clues that these weren't the usual knuckleheads, e.g. they were bigger, had polished armor and gear, etc.

I'm on the other side here: bring on "improved" humanoids. They are (almost) as welcome as level-ed human foes.

"New" monsters that are the same old thing with a minor change are boring to me, and are a given. Increasing the (already) over bloated ranks of intelligent humanoid creatures in a campaign makes be gag; please just flesh out/"level" a group of them & eliminate the rest.

The question probably fits the homebrew forum better, even for Gygax's game(s).

I don't think you need to create a whole new monster to have higher HD humanoids. I consider everything in the MM to be a "typical example." So a typical group of human bandits are mostly 0-level, with a few higher-level/higher-HD leader types. But that doesn't mean you can't have a group of human bandits that composed entirely of veteran Fighters, if you wanted. Same with humanoids, as far as I'm concerned. Any orc can be "higher level" and have HD, or have special powers like a classed character. I give monsters whatever HD/power/etc I want them to have.

I also agree that I dislike the idea of low-level monsters "scaling up" as the PCs gain levels. (Or things like "when you're 1st level, the city guards are 1st level threats, but when you're 10th level, the city guards are 10th level threats." Blech.)

I don't think everything should scale up, but the leader of the watch in a large city could certainly be high level. So could an Orc or Centaur. Gawds forbid an encounter with a small band of elite X's? It's not much different than encountering an NPC party.

Typical watch members are L0-3 fighters in my 1e game(s).

If by "scaled up" we mean only increased HD, DMG and lower AC, then no, I don't have any need for that. If, however, we mean some sort of twist with unexpected powers and a frequency of uncommon or rare, then yeah, I've got uses for those sorts of scaled up humanoids.

In CoT, Jacquays ..

Another angle would be to give some sort of breed mixing, sort of equivalent to dogs. I had a DM (back when I first started playing) that had some special smelling orcs (squirmy with large noses) that could sniff out the PCs (if I remember correctly they were followed closely by their master orcs. I think there were other ones that were extremely muscular versions also taller that acted as the advanced combatants. Infact, this was before I ever looked inside the MM (so it must have been in the first year or two). I was kinda let down, I expected to see variants (and I wasn't a big fan of the pig face...it took years for that to grow on me).

Maybe OT, maybe not...The 'revving up' that immediately comes to mind are adaptations of the Battle of the Five Armies (in SR?). From my notes:

(Normal) Goblin: att @ HF; def @ LF
Goblin bodyguard: att @ 2 HF; def @ 2 AF
Goblin King (=Hero lvl): att @ 4 HF; def @ 4 AF

(Normal) Dwarf: att @ HF; def @ LF
Dwarven bodyguard: att/def @ 1 HF
Dwarven Chieftain (=Hero lvl): att/def @ 4 HF
Dwarven "Elites": att @ 1 HF; def @ 1 AF

(Normal) Elf: att @ HF
Elven King: att/def @ 4 HF

I rev up, down, and modify all monsters.

Shoulda seen the faces on the players when 4 armed ogre sized hobgoblins attacked them. Of course, they were kinda weak as they were experiments by a priest of Hextor and he was working toward 6 armed versions...and these were just the 4 armed ones lol

I think humanoids with higher hit dice than normal have their place, like most things in the game it is partly how the mundane contrasts with the fantastic that makes it interesting.