Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Yeah - can't argue with anyone's personal economics; no one should spend more than they can afford for anything.

But if the only acceptable standard is 100% faithfulness to the original, in all aspects of the books not related to playability, than WOTC would be dumb to try anything more in the 1E arena with the original material.

Thankfully, I think it will sell out anyway. But if it doesn't, and reasons like this are why, than our market doesn't really merit making overtures to.

Ebay had lots of copies of these books, at cheaper average auction prices, back a few years ago when people said that putting 1E in print again would be something they supported wholeheartedly (but apparently only morally?).

Perhaps WOTC should put out perfect bound softcovers instead, to keep the price at 1979's $12 - $15. A lot of gripes (not necessarily here) seem to think that the cover price was listed on the 10 tablets of stone that came off the mountain.

Even though I'm not buying these, I'm glad WotC reprinted them and I think it's a good thing. (And I think they did a good job on the reprints, all things considered.)

I support the idea of reprinting 1e. It's not because I need the books, but because I'm glad to see more 1e books being made available to the market, and more interest in 1e. I'd like to see WotC occassionally reprint the 1e rulebooks, kind of like Disney occassionally re-releases DVDs of a particular movie. But just because I support that idea, it doesn't mean I'm going to buy the books every time they're reprinted.

Also, when I say I'd like to see 1e "in print," I'm thinking of more than just the core rules. My ideal scenario is something like this:

• WotC sells PDFs of the TSR back-catalog (available all the time)
• WotC occassionally reprints the 1e rulebooks (on the "Disney movie model" -- maybe sometimes it's the core three, and the next year it's DDG, et cetera)
• WotC occassionally reprints a module/supplement, using the same "Disney movie model"
• WotC occassionally prints a *new* 1e adventure/monster book -- instead of worrying about a constant stream of "support" product, they could focus on producing a quality product every once in a while.
• For an appropriate fee, WotC licenses the use of the AD&D trademark to other companies who want to produce AD&D materials. (And there's always OSRIC for those who don't want to pay a license fee just to say "AD&D")

Under that kind of model, I'd be unlikely to buy the core books, but very likely to buy other stuff. For example, I'd love to buy reprinted replacements for some of the popular modules, and I'd definitely take a look at anything new they offered, and I'd buy it if it was good. And obviously the PDFs and licensed AD&D products from other companies would be of interest to me, too.

True. My frustration is more with the people on the web I see who say things like "I was going to buy these until I saw that the word "grant" on page umptyfratz was made illegible. I now consider these books full of fail".

EOTB wrote:True. My frustration is more with the people on the web I see who say things like "I was going to buy these until I saw that the word "grant" on page umptyfratz was made illegible. I now consider these books full of fail".

LOL. Well, I didn't say that the books were full of fail, despite pointing out that printing problem with "grant" (which may well even be unique to Jon's copy ). I am disappointed in the quality of the artwork reproductions, by the potentially very minor printing error, by the paper stock, etc., but that's really still orthogonal to the fact that I'm not buying the books because I have 10 or more of each of them already. If they books were 2000% awesome, would I find the $$$ to make buying them happen; maybe, but my "need" is still pretty minimal (I passed on the recent Chaosium reprint of Masks of Nyarlathotep and the KS for Rappan Athuk for the same reasons: I already own these, in multiple versions). The AD&D reprints are on my Amazon wish list, and if someone in my family decides to buy the books for me for my birthday, or Christmas, I'm certainly going to be happy to own them, flaws and all, because overall they are still a nice package. I'm definitely not trying to rain on anyone's parade about being happy about buying the reprints.

Like PJ, I'm all for WotC making the AD&D books available at a strategic level vs. just a tactical reprint level. I'm sure some (many?) old-school-oriented people do need/want the books---in the sense that they don't own copies already, or that their copies are falling apart, or they want to buy the books to support the AD&D cause, or to support the Gygax fund cause, etc.---which are all great reasons to buy the books and to show support for AD&D in the marketplace, or Gary, or whatever motivates someone to buy the books. And while I'm not buying these books, that doesn't mean that I'm not supporting those causes at all; it just means I'm supporting them through other methods.

grodog wrote:I am disappointed in the quality of the artwork reproductions

Well...they are not reproductions. I read the interview on what they had to do with the artwork to clean it up. The scanned art showed the other side of the page due to the bright scanning bulb. So they had to clean up the image and remove that info on the opposite page. I think (and I only say "think" because I mess around with Photoshop alot) that they got a tad lazy with the cleanup process. Instead of loading up the scanned image and erasing all of the bled opposite page info, they just adjusted the brightness and contrast to make that stuff go (fade) away. That is why all of the images are darker than the older versions. Just a theory, but I tried it for fun...just to be sure that is what could have happened.

Just confirmed that the binding is stitched, the threading is clearly visible in the Dungeon Masters Guide on page 176. Open it, and pull the pages apart slightly and you can clearly see the white threads stitching the pages.

So looks like another myth about the reprints has been dragged out and justly shot in the head.

Any other complaints, anyone? They're a millimeter too thick, thin, tall or short? The paper has the wrong mood? Do the books cast a shadow at the wrong angle? Are they too diffident?

Wizardawn wrote:I read the interview on what they had to do with the artwork to clean it up. The scanned art showed the other side of the page due to the bright scanning bulb. So they had to clean up the image and remove that info on the opposite page.

I read this too. If this is true, then the person scanning the art was an idiot. I scan maps, art, and text all the time from notebooks. *Everything* on the opposite side of the page shows through. However, if you but a piece of black construction paper *behind* the page being scanned, it causes all of the white area on the scanned page to darken slightly, eliminating *all* bleed through of markings on the opposite side of the page. In fact, I have used this technique when scanning text and art out of the old AD&D rulebooks. It entirely eliminates the problem they are describing. If somebody really did go through and "paint" out all the bleed-through...! What a waste of time. Somebody didn't know what they were doing.

I've had that problem before too when scanning. You put a solid black background behind it and it and scan it again. Most scanners lids are grey.

Freakin' rookies.

grodog wrote:

EOTB wrote:True. My frustration is more with the people on the web I see who say things like "I was going to buy these until I saw that the word "grant" on page umptyfratz was made illegible. I now consider these books full of fail".

LOL. Well, I didn't say that the books were full of fail, despite pointing out that printing problem with "grant" (which may well even be unique to Jon's copy ). I am disappointed in the quality of the artwork reproductions, by the potentially very minor printing error, by the paper stock, etc., but that's really still orthogonal to the fact that I'm not buying the books because I have 10 or more of each of them already. If they books were 2000% awesome, would I find the $$$ to make buying them happen; maybe, but my "need" is still pretty minimal (I passed on the recent Chaosium reprint of Masks of Nyarlathotep and the KS for Rappan Athuk for the same reasons: I already own these, in multiple versions).

I suppose I should realize that posting in frustration will result in misattribution, or perhaps misapportioning that frustration. You are correct, I hyperbolized your sentiment.

I think people are being way too hard on the books physical construction, and I don't know how it possibly serves the greater good to have so many people getting online and proclaiming that they are not supporting this monetarily. Not that I think that everyone (or anyone) is obligated to, but it would be nice if a project like this received only encouragement from the market. And yes, I think that the number of people saying that they're not buying them because they already own them would reasonably discourage further efforts - because what piece of 1E or basic isn't owned in some form by the vast majority of old school players?

Edit - at least, if someone isn't going to buy it, why post that in forums that could reasonably be construed as being monitored by Wizards for the market reception?

On the other hand, if someone who might be considered part of the target market says they're not buying, and says exactly why, and goes on to suggest scenarios that might prompt them to buy, that could be helpful to WotC.

In any case, the ultimate measure of market response is going to be sales. Everyone has to make their own decision on whether it's worth it to them, and the books will need to stand or fall on their own merit. I suspect that there's plenty of market out there. Ironically, the people on this forum are probably one of the most difficult market segments to crack, because so many of us already own multiple copies of the rulebooks, but even a lot of us are buying them.

I just got socked with some serious repair bills for the vehicles (well, one is still dead, actually.) Then a family vacation, and gencon.

I hope some are still in the pipeline when all of this bleeding of money is over, because I'd like to have them.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:On the other hand, if someone who might be considered part of the target market says they're not buying, and says exactly why, and goes on to suggest scenarios that might prompt them to buy, that could be helpful to WotC.

Very true. It comes down to whether or not the feedback received is reasonable, or even correctable.

Most of the negative feedback I have seen is:

*Paper isn't original high rag-count paper
*Image scans weren't done right
*I already own this
*Price should be in the $20 - $25 range

The only one of those that are "actionable" are the art scans. And I think that's a toss-up as to whether that would be considered reasonable. High-rag paper might be still available, even though I haven't seen another book published with it since, well, a 1970's AD&D book, but that's surely going to drive up the price which is already a sticking point with many.

As you say, sales will tell. And I do expect these to sell out.

It doesn't negate my surprise at how many mixed comments I see, given what I perceive was an almost universal vocalized desire for this when nobody thought it would ever happen, but I've fumed enough and I'll put my indignation back in the box for later when its more appropriate for another subject

So far, I've heard sales have been slow. (Didn't they just come out last week?) I haven't been in a game store in a couple months. I was in Barnes & Noble to pick up a couple Pathfinder books, but I didn't see any of the reprints there. When I met with my gaming group on Saturday, nobody had picked up any copies of them.

Shut up, "Clangador."

Clangador wrote:I was in Barnes & Noble to pick up a couple Pathfinder books ...

Apparently there is no version of D&D Clang doesn't prefer the clone for!