Here comes 5e.

[foxroe]

I'm sure some of you have read this, but I thought it would be interesting fodder for this thread.

It really kind of captures my beliefs about the whole shebang. TSR fucked up D&D in the end, WOTC tried to "recover" with 3ed, but then just ended up barfing out 4ed in desperation.

I'm all about keeping my OGL inspired S&W/OSRIC/LL/etc. and the games that inspired them, but it would be nice, I think, to see "5ed" be a simple, permanent, store-shelf, family game. I think it would be good for the hobby, even if the game ends up being shit.

Thanks to Dwilimir over at Matt's S&W forum for pointing this essay out (I don't do ENWorld, so I would have missed this).

[TRP]

Interesting read, especiallly regarding his view of the social web being the real value in the product, and it's a grim take on the future for publishers.

[AxeMental]

I'm sure some of you have read this, but I thought it would be interesting fodder for this thread.

It really kind of captures my beliefs about the whole shebang. TSR fucked up D&D in the end, WOTC tried to "recover" with 3ed, but then just ended up barfing out 4ed in desperation.

I'm all about keeping my OGL inspired S&W/OSRIC/LL/etc. and the games that inspired them, but it would be nice, I think, to see "5ed" be a simple, permanent, store-shelf, family game. I think it would be good for the hobby, even if the game ends up being shit.

Thanks to Dwilimir over at Matt's S&W forum for pointing this essay out (I don't do ENWorld, so I would have missed this).

I agree, and thats probably the best we could hope for.

A key problem with this modular concept is the setting. People sometimes forget how critical the setting is (described in the three 1E core books and early modules) in defining the 1E feel (probably 50/50% between the rules and default setting made 1E 1E).

WOTC has a split market to contend with. The more conservative "old school" and potential mainstream vs the Merylin Manso bunch (3E/4E dungeon punk, insect looking armor, overly muscled chicks group). The mainstream and old 1E players will demand traditional looking fantasy art (they won't be fooled twice). You can publish a core book with rules that might replicate 1E somewhat, but what about the setting (defined in the descriptions of the rules (will monsters take levels as classes for instance?) or your general world description. What about your artwork? If you took 1E and gave it a 3E setting it still would have sucked.

WOTC needs to start from scratch to some degree. Everyone would like something new probably (as long as its actual role play). Just not bad.

[Falconer]

No new thoughts here, just mainly recapping for my own benefit. Basically, Wizards has been casting around for a strategy for making D&D a mass success.

With 3e they tried to out-nerd all other nerd games. It failed. It’s still going strong amongst nerds in the form of Pathfinder and continuing players of 3e, but Hasbro would not be pleased even with the numbers that Paizo is getting. Now, they can’t go back to 3e, because, as I said, 3e already failed, and this time around half their target audience would stick with Pathfinder or 3.5e.

With 4e they tried to ride the WoW wave. It utterly failed.

I think to explain what is happening, we have to look at the change in direction that occurred midstream through 4e’s run. I think the idea with 5e is to be exactly the same idea behind Essentials, but done for real this time. I’m guessing they are going to gamble everything they’ve got on a Red Box with The Keep on the Borderlands, and everything else is going to be totally peripheral to their strategy, for the sole purpose of appeasing the nerds (because you DON’T want the nerds going around telling everyone that 5e sucks).

[Solinor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIiAAhUeR6Y

This explains their starting point.

Looking for the perfect D&Ds.

[Matthew]

If this new edition is anything but a continuation of the D20 approach to D&D, "modern design sensibilities" and all, I will eat my hat (not as great a risk as it may sound, as I do not own a hat). Those of you who think this heralds some return to the golden TSR era of Keep on the Borderlands and whatnot need to wake up. Have people forgotten the marketing of 2000 so easily? This is the same old parlour trick with a new magician (and the help of one of the old ones). It will look more like AD&D than D20/4E, but that is not exactly a difficult feat (pun intended). The most likely scenario to my mind is that this is a big step back to D20/3E with a load of talk about TSR era D&D as a smokescreen to cover their retreat. Believe you me, I would like nothing better than to be wrong about this, but those who do not learn from history and all that.

[MageInBlack]

I began working on a clone of 4e. I got the cover done and then lost steam...

[James Maliszewski]

This probably marks me as a horrible old curmudgeon (i.e. a member of K&KA) but I have to ask: why has this thread made it to 12 pages? All of us here already have D&D. Nothing WotC is going to offer us is going to compare to the Real Thing, no matter how many nice words they say or how many apologies they make for past missteps. As Matthew says (correctly, in my opinion), 5e is going to be a continuation not a repudiation of the design trends of the last decade or more, only with lots of nostalgic talk and kumbayah platitudes used as cover. Doesn't anyone remember that Monte Cook, now the lead designer of 5e, once stated that the "problem" with 3e was that the designers felt constrained in eliminating "sacred cows" of the game, that they didn't go far enough in remaking D&D for the 21st century? I'd be amazed if that mentality still isn't lurking in the background at WotC, regardless of what is said in public.

I skipped out of 3e in 2007 and never jumped on the 4e bandwagon. I see no good reason to get back on with 5e just because of some pretty words by people who've time and again proven they have no clue what made D&D great in the first place. The truth is neither WotC nor the D&D "brand" matter anymore -- at least they don't to me.

[Random]

I was under the impression that we were laughing at them.
That's worth twelve pages once in a while.

[James Maliszewski]

I was under the impression that we were laughing at them.
That's worth twelve pages once in a while.

I have no sense of humor.

[francisca]

For me, as Random said, but on the other hand, I'm quite happily disassociated from any emotion on the issue, and plan on having fun watching gamer's reactions as the process unfolds.

[Falconer]

I have never once played 3e or 4e, but I still enjoy discussion of the future of the brand. If that makes me a TRAITOR, so be it. Look, I’ve never bought the argument that I should be content with the fact that I already have D&D in the form I enjoy playing. Shared experience is important in this hobby. I would love for more people to share the D&D that I love, rather than having to wall myself off into an ever-smaller community because I REALLY can’t relate to 3e and 4e fans.

[geezerdm]

This probably marks me as a horrible old curmudgeon (i.e. a member of K&KA) but I have to ask: why has this thread made it to 12 pages? All of us here already have D&D. Nothing WotC is going to offer us is going to compare to the Real Thing, no matter how many nice words they say or how many apologies they make for past missteps. As Matthew says (correctly, in my opinion), 5e is going to be a continuation not a repudiation of the design trends of the last decade or more, only with lots of nostalgic talk and kumbayah platitudes used as cover. Doesn't anyone remember that Monte Cook, now the lead designer of 5e, once stated that the "problem" with 3e was that the designers felt constrained in eliminating "sacred cows" of the game, that they didn't go far enough in remaking D&D for the 21st century? I'd be amazed if that mentality still isn't lurking in the background at WotC, regardless of what is said in public.

I suspect that like Mark Twain's wife, they'll mimic some of the "words," but miss the "tune," entirely.

[francisca]

I have never once played 3e or 4e, but I still enjoy discussion of the future of the brand. If that makes me a TRAITOR, so be it. Look, I’ve never bought the argument that I should be content with the fact that I already have D&D in the form I enjoy playing. Shared experience is important in this hobby. I would love for more people to share the D&D that I love, rather than having to wall myself off into an ever-smaller community because I REALLY can’t relate to 3e and 4e fans.

Well said.

[rredmond]

I think djeryv's PH cover is worth 12 pages of reading!

I enjoy reading this stuff, because a lot of you have so much inside information (whether into publishing, editing, the outside lines of the business, and the inside tracks of TSR and WotC) that I enjoy reading this kind of living history. I really appreciate KnK for that.

As for me, I gave up at 2e. I sometimes read the modules, but almost never the rule books for later editions. I'm fine with what I have right now, and can't waste time learning something else. Get off my lawn and all that...