Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:34 pm
That's exactly how I'm reading it.francisca wrote:Am I the only one reading it like that?
Page 9 of 39
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:35 pm
These don’t specifically answer your query, but they are interesting:Guy Fullerton wrote:How would B/X slot in there, if at all? Is it too close to OD&D to distinguish it in this regard?
Can anybody point to anecdotal "evidence" (survey/poll) showing whether people started via OD&D vs. AD&D vs. B/X? I'd speculate that a significant number of people got their start with B/X, even if they did move to (or incorporate parts of) AD&D.
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/10/ ... hobby.html
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... entor.html
My hunch would be that, since at least half of gamers learned from a “mentor” of some sort (an “older brother” or a friend from school), that they were inducted directly into AD&D. The other half most likely taught themselves with one of the Basic Sets and The Keep on the Borderlands.
KotB as the most common shared entryway to the hobby would have solidified the “Gygaxian” feel of the game in most peoples’ eyes.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:38 pm
That sounds like a shit game, I agree.francisca wrote:Yeah, I'm not buying that either. That sounds like:
Frank, Deano, and Sammy show up with 3e characters
Scooter shows up with a 4e character
and the grumpy old son of a bitch next door shows up with an AD&D character and 14 OD&D henchmen
Then, through the (say it like Doug Henning...) **MAGIC** of 5e, you all play the game you want!
Am I the only one reading it like that?
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:52 pm
One thing that I think WotC needs to look at is whether they are primarily defining success to uniting the existing D&D market, which I define as primarily people for whom D&D/RPGs represents their primary free time hobby, often treading into "lifestyle hobby" territory (vacations are spent going to cons, clothing and other ancillary products have RPG themes, etc.), or, if they want to try to leverage the peak of the hobby between 1980-83 to appeal to the nostalgia of casual gamers and have a marketing campaign aimed at Dad's introducing their kids to the game. I think that by focusing the basic game on the latter, and the modular additions on the former, this particular next couple of years could be a prime (but short) window to truly grow the hobby again.
In many ways, D&D is a classic example of the tail wagging the dog. Hard-core fans of "modern" RPGs want things from a game that casual gamers are less interested in. Most gamers of the 80's were casual. Most modifications to the game were at the request of lifestyle hobbyists. And now the game is not something that a Dad could pick up, refresh his memory on, and share with his 12-year-old in an afternoon.
Kids who were 10 years old in 1980 were 31 in 2001. Probably had either no kids, if career driven, or very young kids. Personal time was probably at an all-time low. So at the launch of 3E, motivation to buy the game was still going to be based on whether or not that person was going to use the game himself, with his peers. But now, that same person is 41; much more likely to have children in that 10-13 year old sweet spot that drove the B/X and AD&D boom. What Dad doesn't like sharing the kinds of things they enjoyed as kids, with their own kids? Including things that the dads really haven't done all that recently.
If I were a Hasbro exec, I would be spending some money to target these people, and this is why I think that the game could be wildly successful by keeping the base as B/X or 1E, largely intact. But you can't make the dad work too hard. It has to look like he remembered it, and reading through it has to be an "oh yeah, I remember that" exercise - not a "what the heck is a DC" exercise.
You could build a modular system off 1E or B/X and get to 3E, and presumably 4E. If a different route is taken, it isn't because it isn't possible, but because they want to appease lifestyle hobbyists out of the gate by allowing them to drive development of a basic system that almost none of them will use as a final gaming product.
"D&D with Dad" could make a mint for Hasbro and be the influx of new gamers that WotC desperately needs, and will never get, by focusing exclusively on lifestyle gamers. People who use your product sporadically, or give it as a birthday present, or buy it as an impulse purchase, pay as much for it as someone who buys it at Gencon. And there are millions more of them.
In many ways, D&D is a classic example of the tail wagging the dog. Hard-core fans of "modern" RPGs want things from a game that casual gamers are less interested in. Most gamers of the 80's were casual. Most modifications to the game were at the request of lifestyle hobbyists. And now the game is not something that a Dad could pick up, refresh his memory on, and share with his 12-year-old in an afternoon.
Kids who were 10 years old in 1980 were 31 in 2001. Probably had either no kids, if career driven, or very young kids. Personal time was probably at an all-time low. So at the launch of 3E, motivation to buy the game was still going to be based on whether or not that person was going to use the game himself, with his peers. But now, that same person is 41; much more likely to have children in that 10-13 year old sweet spot that drove the B/X and AD&D boom. What Dad doesn't like sharing the kinds of things they enjoyed as kids, with their own kids? Including things that the dads really haven't done all that recently.
If I were a Hasbro exec, I would be spending some money to target these people, and this is why I think that the game could be wildly successful by keeping the base as B/X or 1E, largely intact. But you can't make the dad work too hard. It has to look like he remembered it, and reading through it has to be an "oh yeah, I remember that" exercise - not a "what the heck is a DC" exercise.
You could build a modular system off 1E or B/X and get to 3E, and presumably 4E. If a different route is taken, it isn't because it isn't possible, but because they want to appease lifestyle hobbyists out of the gate by allowing them to drive development of a basic system that almost none of them will use as a final gaming product.
"D&D with Dad" could make a mint for Hasbro and be the influx of new gamers that WotC desperately needs, and will never get, by focusing exclusively on lifestyle gamers. People who use your product sporadically, or give it as a birthday present, or buy it as an impulse purchase, pay as much for it as someone who buys it at Gencon. And there are millions more of them.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:08 pm
I agree with pretty much every word of this.Eye of the Beholder wrote:...
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:42 pm
I agree, the group of people who played D&D in the late 70's/80's who never bought or used any of the AD&D books has to be vanishingly small.T. Foster wrote:I consider B/X D&D an intro-level starter product, and that almost everybody who played B/X D&D eventually "upgraded" to AD&D within 3 to 6 months. I realize there are a few people who didn't follow this pattern and never switched over, but AFAICT they're a tiny, statistically insignificant minority.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:54 pm
Howard Johnson is right. Of course, there's plenty of people who still rave about BECMI and the Rules Cyclopedia; I see them getting a LOT of love.blackprinceofmuncie wrote:I agree, the group of people who played D&D in the late 70's/80's who never bought or used any of the AD&D books has to be vanishingly small.T. Foster wrote:I consider B/X D&D an intro-level starter product, and that almost everybody who played B/X D&D eventually "upgraded" to AD&D within 3 to 6 months. I realize there are a few people who didn't follow this pattern and never switched over, but AFAICT they're a tiny, statistically insignificant minority.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:53 pm
If you are getting out to the news outlets or blogs that aren't gaming related that are carrying news about this, it's funny how many comments are from lapsed gamers that still prefer 1st edition - not as many comments as those from 3rd edition players, true, but considering the increased likelihood that a current or near-current player of the game will bother to post a comment on an article about D&D, I think that the number of pro-1st edition comments out there from the general public should put to rest the idea that there isn't a market for 1E AD&D or B/X if it had look and feel down.
I can hope, at least
This comment had 22 "likes" - far and away the most "likes of any comment posted out of 83.comments section from D&D article in the [url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/10/dungeons-and-dragons-rema_n_1196534.html?ref=technology&ir=Technology]Huffinton Post[/url] wrote: HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Cranmer1549
When Lady Liberty has me bewitched like Samantha.
627 Fans
6 hours ago( 4:16 PM)
Wizards of the Coast still publishes a book form of AD&D?
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SwingingFromCenter
457 Fans
7 hours ago( 2:41 PM)
The old system was fine, it just hasn't been prpoerly marketed in forever. Release a new Baldur's Gate game, and I guarantee you interest goes up.
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1kant2
161 Fans
8 hours ago( 2:04 PM)
Most video games are not really a challenge to D and D. Tabletop gaming centers around a group experience with friends which is still not quite there on pc's (to say nothing of handhelds). Technology can certainly be employed here but there is nothing replaceable with an imaginative experience around a table without fundamentally destroying the point.
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Proximate Cause
The GOP helps those that don't need it!
226 Fans
4 hours ago( 5:54 PM)
Yes! No video game can touch D&D. I am in my 40's and still remember playing with my friends til the break of dawn. No video game can ever match the sharp and vivid imagination of a skilled dungeon master. I think I still have a character or two in my scrap boxes.
This is a weird one - is it Rob? I didn't think he was ever at "Wizards of the Coast", but I can't imagine anyone else who was at WotC having the brass balls to use Robilar as their screen name.top comment from [url=http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2012/01/5th-edition-dungeons-and-dragons/]Geek Dad on Wired[/url] wrote: Showing 80 of 83 comments
Stephen Young
1E Forever.
Like Reply
1 day ago 22 Likes
Are you listening to the echo chamber of your forums, WotC? Or are you paying attention to what a significant amount of the greater public is saying? I hope Mearls and Cook hit their first Hear Noise roll, and have the Keen-Eared ability.comments from [url=http://geekout.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/09/wizards-of-the-coasts-announces-new-edition-of-dungeons-and-dragons/]CNN Article[/url] wrote: Robilar
Dungeons and Dragons is a product that is a real head scratcher for Hasbro.
Dungeons and Dragons just doesn't fit the Hasbro sales model, a product that uses pencil paper and imagination was always a tough model for a business model. The fact that the brand name is so widely recognized in popular culture only makes the product more frustrating for Hasbro. The logic that "Rome wasn't built in a day" just didn't fit the Hasbro toy model of mass printed fire and forget games and toys, and the Holy Grail status of Dungeons and Dragons inside WOTC just didn't neatly fit a balance sheet, and as Pokemon sales trailed off they started looking at the whole WOTC product portfolio.
As a practical example I can remember in 2001 when the Psionic Handbooks came out and all 50,0000 copies of the first printing sold out at the distribution level. Anthony Valtera who was a Business Manager for the D&D brand was thrilled, only to have a Hasbro executive ask why in the world we even made a product that only had a run of 50,000 copies. Now this was early in the Hasbro/WOTC merger, but it gave an idea of the disconnect on the product line. Hasbro couldn't get a handle on how such a big name brand could generate such little revenue and demand such a large development team.
I can't even begin to describe the level of tension between WOTC and Hasbro in late 2000 and early 2001 when Hasbro sold the electonic rights to D&D (Peter Adkinson resigned) which was seen as undermining WOTC's ability to revive the brand. Of course there was Peter at Gen Con running demos at Gen Con 2001 for Dungeons and Dragons out of sheer love of the game. That sort of put it all in persepective, those grew up with D&D would love it forever. I guess the point is that while most of gamers might not like the churning of editions, it's just business.
It's been nearly a decade since I was at WOTC, and I had nothing to do with the gaming development, however I can say that the development team always asked first, is this good for our players, not will this increase sales. It's a tough act to balance passion and profits!
January 10, 2012 at 12:08 pm | Reply
Mike
D&D originally was about a small set of rules, and big imaginations. The problem was that game experience was a strict function of DM skills; a weak DM meant a weak game.
They addressed the problem by throwing lots of rule-details into the game, which made bad-DMs less-bad in practice, but also screwed up good DMs who had lively campaigns wrecked by rules-lawyers.
The best games are distinguished by frugality, leveraging a minimized set of rule-primitives to drive a polynomial expansion of potential scenarios. If they wanted to really make a great D&D reboot, they would make the new ruleset fit within the same 3-volume set of the original D&D Basic Set 1st Edition, minus one page.
January 10, 2012 at 9:55 am | Reply
James
Well said.
January 10, 2012 at 11:03 am | Reply
Rabby
Mike,
You have nailed the issue for me. I started with a great DM who used the open ended environment of the original D&D to provide a fantastic game playing experience. After AD&D i he general games soon degenerated into groups of geeks arguing over what was printed in expensive books. Our groups of players rejected the new rules and only used a few books as source books for a couple of new ideas. We never accepted the limits imposed by later versions and likely never will.
I wish that they would reprint the original books as a series. I would give copies to my children so that they could enjoy the origins of the game. You know, when it had meaning.
January 10, 2012 at 11:17 am | Reply
SoulCatcher
"Shea wants the combat part of the game – obviously a big part for any player – to run faster. He’d also like to see the game be consistently challenging for players (and their characters) at all levels."
Most players I've played with just strive to obtain an artifact like the Sword of Kos and the Invulnerable coat of Arnd. We like the Loot!
A well formed party should be able to handle most anything with ease. I hate games where a single die roll kills us all.
January 10, 2012 at 9:27 am | Reply
I can hope, at least
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:54 pm
From above: " only to have a Hasbro executive ask why in the world we even made a product that only had a run of 50,000 copies. Now this was early in the Hasbro/WOTC merger, but it gave an idea of the disconnect on the product line. Hasbro couldn't get a handle on how such a big name brand could generate such little revenue and demand such a large development team."
And HASBRO was correct. They wanted to know what the living fuck WOTC was doing with a brand that was once played by millions. 1E AD&D is known and loved by a huge number of people (even though its not played). We know this is true because when Gygax died it was front page news on many major websites (like Drudge and CNN and Fox) for many days. We thought it was only us that gave a damn. We were wrong. HASBRO knows WOTC could and should have done more. And the same is still true. That they failed to do so is a sign of their inability to deliver (not of the markets inability to buy). Aim high or go home.
The problem with WOTC (and TSR before them) is that despite best intentions, very few people on board those companies "got" 1E. They didn't understand what was so great about those skinny bearded dudes half hidden in shadow on the front of the PH (to them they were amaturish, it was too dark...blah). These are the people that were born adult, lacked that childhood imagination that understood the best artwork and best writing requires the reader to fill in the blanks for themelves. Gygax was like the average kid. He had an imagination, but he kept it into his adult life, he wasn't ashamed of it. There was a magic about 1E (and 0E) the cocreators imparted on the game in its writing and artwork. That magic was lost when the suites took over, they hired the wrong people (who wanted to improve the game) and consequently, it has never returned (not because the fans aren't there (we are I suspect in the 100,000s if not more), but because the developers are no longer).
Hasbro should hire everyone still alive that worked on 1E (artists as well) and create something that would have been the natural progression of 1E (the 2E that never was). Hell, find that rat bastard Tramp in his damned taxi and offer him 100k for a cover (or whatever his price is). Screw the modern bug armor look, anime has played out, the skills the feats, the idiotic PC chicks in armor, all of it. Go back to whats liked by the masses. As I've always said, take a walk into the kids section at any book store and look at the covers of fairytale books. They are still hand painted (for the most part) the computer look isn't popular with parents it seems (nor kids of a very young age). They don't have disproportioned body parts, things aren't made to look rad or modern, swords are proportional etc. etc. etc.. If you want to sell a product, GET A FUCKING CLUE. stop bending over backwards to make a tiny market (of 2tards and 3tards) happy and aim higher (there is absofuckinglutely no reason D&D can't be sold along side Monopoly, twister, etc. 1E was on a role, then someone at TSR got greedy and the train wrecked. HASBRO bought the wreckage. If I were them, I'd ask WOTC what have you done for me lately? If they can't deliver can them and find someone who can. Find someone who really "got" what was great about 1E and 0E (someone like Dungeon Delver) and put them in charge. I guarentee they couldn't do worse. Bull Rush....who the hell thought of that.
And HASBRO was correct. They wanted to know what the living fuck WOTC was doing with a brand that was once played by millions. 1E AD&D is known and loved by a huge number of people (even though its not played). We know this is true because when Gygax died it was front page news on many major websites (like Drudge and CNN and Fox) for many days. We thought it was only us that gave a damn. We were wrong. HASBRO knows WOTC could and should have done more. And the same is still true. That they failed to do so is a sign of their inability to deliver (not of the markets inability to buy). Aim high or go home.
The problem with WOTC (and TSR before them) is that despite best intentions, very few people on board those companies "got" 1E. They didn't understand what was so great about those skinny bearded dudes half hidden in shadow on the front of the PH (to them they were amaturish, it was too dark...blah). These are the people that were born adult, lacked that childhood imagination that understood the best artwork and best writing requires the reader to fill in the blanks for themelves. Gygax was like the average kid. He had an imagination, but he kept it into his adult life, he wasn't ashamed of it. There was a magic about 1E (and 0E) the cocreators imparted on the game in its writing and artwork. That magic was lost when the suites took over, they hired the wrong people (who wanted to improve the game) and consequently, it has never returned (not because the fans aren't there (we are I suspect in the 100,000s if not more), but because the developers are no longer).
Hasbro should hire everyone still alive that worked on 1E (artists as well) and create something that would have been the natural progression of 1E (the 2E that never was). Hell, find that rat bastard Tramp in his damned taxi and offer him 100k for a cover (or whatever his price is). Screw the modern bug armor look, anime has played out, the skills the feats, the idiotic PC chicks in armor, all of it. Go back to whats liked by the masses. As I've always said, take a walk into the kids section at any book store and look at the covers of fairytale books. They are still hand painted (for the most part) the computer look isn't popular with parents it seems (nor kids of a very young age). They don't have disproportioned body parts, things aren't made to look rad or modern, swords are proportional etc. etc. etc.. If you want to sell a product, GET A FUCKING CLUE. stop bending over backwards to make a tiny market (of 2tards and 3tards) happy and aim higher (there is absofuckinglutely no reason D&D can't be sold along side Monopoly, twister, etc. 1E was on a role, then someone at TSR got greedy and the train wrecked. HASBRO bought the wreckage. If I were them, I'd ask WOTC what have you done for me lately? If they can't deliver can them and find someone who can. Find someone who really "got" what was great about 1E and 0E (someone like Dungeon Delver) and put them in charge. I guarentee they couldn't do worse. Bull Rush....who the hell thought of that.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:29 am
My Wishlist:
1) That 5E is retro-compatible to a degree that players can easily use their 5E characters in the Red Box Vancouver games
2) That 5E is retro-compatible to a degree AND has quality new content without excess filler so that they release monster books with content that I would want to use for my game.
1) That 5E is retro-compatible to a degree that players can easily use their 5E characters in the Red Box Vancouver games
2) That 5E is retro-compatible to a degree AND has quality new content without excess filler so that they release monster books with content that I would want to use for my game.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:34 am
3) Some sort of hybrid for tactical miniature combat of 3E-lite and AD&D; simple melee procedures for people that want tactical mini play.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:35 am
The more I brood on this, the more I see the flaws in the intent. I predict that once the shiny newness wears off, people will still be left scratching their heads.
While the "modular" approach seems like a decent idea at first glance, how are they going to handle all of that splat? Will all of the content of one book be truly isolated from another, or is it more likely that one book will depend on another? Or even worse, what if material is repeated in various splat-books?
And how would modules/adventures be handled? Will they only depend on the "core" rules (whatever that entails) or will they list a bunch of "required supplemental material" that would otherwise be unnecessary to some?
There was nothing ever "wrong" or "broken" about the original rules (or AD&D for that matter), so why change them? It's a rhetorical question, of course. It's all about the Benjamins.
Rules for games like Chess, Life, Monopoly, Scrabble, etc. have remained relatively unchanged for a very long time, and they still sell and make profits for the companies that sell them. Ha$bro needs to just come out with one simple set of rules, sell them from department store shelves, and then just leave it alone for good.
While the "modular" approach seems like a decent idea at first glance, how are they going to handle all of that splat? Will all of the content of one book be truly isolated from another, or is it more likely that one book will depend on another? Or even worse, what if material is repeated in various splat-books?
And how would modules/adventures be handled? Will they only depend on the "core" rules (whatever that entails) or will they list a bunch of "required supplemental material" that would otherwise be unnecessary to some?
There was nothing ever "wrong" or "broken" about the original rules (or AD&D for that matter), so why change them? It's a rhetorical question, of course. It's all about the Benjamins.
Rules for games like Chess, Life, Monopoly, Scrabble, etc. have remained relatively unchanged for a very long time, and they still sell and make profits for the companies that sell them. Ha$bro needs to just come out with one simple set of rules, sell them from department store shelves, and then just leave it alone for good.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:45 am
That's the big problem with D&D nowadays; they're essentially trying to sell Sorry in a Clue box, and it's quite confusing even though it's dandy for everyone who always hated Clue in the first place.foxroe wrote:Rules for games like Chess, Life, Monopoly, Scrabble, etc. have remained relatively unchanged for a very long time, and they still sell and make profits for the companies that sell them. Ha$bro needs to just come out with one simple set of rules, sell them from department store shelves, and then just leave it alone for good.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:00 am
I agree. The worst thing they can do is release fifth edition as yet another distinct version of the Dungeons & Dragons game if they want to avoid further fragmentation of the community. An incremental "improvement" or "evolution" of third edition would have been their best bet in 2008, heck I bet the fan base could have even swallowed the up front idea that Wizards of the Coast intended to release new versions of the core books every four years or so, with the best of new ideas and all new art. Mind, I am looking forward to fifth edition just to see what it is, but I am essentially permanently disenfranchised from the brand in terms of who gets my custom.
Re: Here comes 5e.
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:09 am
A deck of playing cards as a artefact/product is the perfect model: cheap, readily available, easy to use. They stimuate sociable activity (I am purposely omitting gambling from this discussion), and even can be used for recreation by the individual (patience/solitaire). Playing cards have been around for over 600 years 
and will likely not go away any time soon. Furthermore there are many different kinds of card-decks which allow even more options for play.
Wizbro needs to create something with those same attributes:
1) cheap: small page-count booklets, returning to the heyday of the hobby with its "LBBs". If they wear out, no problem: just buy another. No fuss.
2) readily available: a product which can be purchased in pretty much any venue--not just speciaty hobby stores in larger cities in upper-scale neighborhoods.
3) easy to use: elementary rules which can be developed in many ways, both for sociable situations (2+ people) or alone (solitaire games).
This is the way the hobby started, and Wizbro has all the building-blocks for success in their IP catalogue if they would only pull their heads out of their arses and look.
I know, I know. I'm repeating myself and 10,000 other posters. I'll get off the hamster-wheel now.
and will likely not go away any time soon. Furthermore there are many different kinds of card-decks which allow even more options for play.Wizbro needs to create something with those same attributes:
1) cheap: small page-count booklets, returning to the heyday of the hobby with its "LBBs". If they wear out, no problem: just buy another. No fuss.
2) readily available: a product which can be purchased in pretty much any venue--not just speciaty hobby stores in larger cities in upper-scale neighborhoods.
3) easy to use: elementary rules which can be developed in many ways, both for sociable situations (2+ people) or alone (solitaire games).
This is the way the hobby started, and Wizbro has all the building-blocks for success in their IP catalogue if they would only pull their heads out of their arses and look.
I know, I know. I'm repeating myself and 10,000 other posters. I'll get off the hamster-wheel now.