Knights & Knaves Alehouse

robertsconley wrote:There been 1200 copies of Blackmarsh downloaded and 50 physical sales of the book. After the asking around this ratio is typical of a product with a free PDF and commerical print book. Based on this and the 500+ sales of Majestic Wilderlands there is solid interest in older editions.

Blackmarsh is also small enough, that it's easy to print out the free edition. That's what I did, so I'm not surprised that physical sales were low. I did buy the MW pdf, though, so I sent ya some beer money!

And whatever one might think of James Raggi, he printed 2,000 copies of both Vornheim and his GE edition. So, we'll see how much interest he experiences.

Well, I don't want to debate the OSR, I had meant the current trend in self-publishing whole clone rulesets that is rather recent (only a few years old really).

Don't mistake the few hundred online active "old school" people (some of us cynical) as "all thats left". We online folks are a drop in the bucket just the most fanatic (I play many board games regularly but have never been to any of their websites or fan websites, yet here I am, so I'm a 1E fanatic). You can't have millions of copies of 1E floating around (in perfectly good shape) and people not playing it...not with so many with fond memories. If they are pulling out their old risk, monopoly, and life boards during holidays, you can rest assured they are doing the same with their 1E D&D books. You can take it to the bank.

I'm going to disagree if only because I think most of those 5 million people stop playing after a while, and I'll bet is because of free time issues. I think a lot of the people who played in the 70s and early 80s ended up just leaving it alone, similar to how people played High School sports but don't play them anymore. They might play on a rare occasion, but I suspect many people in D&D's heyday--even if they had good memories--just stopped pplaying or only played in their high school and college days. When they actually did surveys of D&D campaigns shortly before 3e was released, Ryan Dancey said the average player campaign lasted 6 months. D&D's a harder game to get into than a simple board game. Also, I'll bet the same people who liked D&D moved on to computer games.

One thing I didn't catch is that Falconer might have invoked James' and my prediction--the reason why people in pop culture invoke the early D&D is because that's when it peaked. I'll bet the younger generation won't have as many fond memories of D&D but rather WoW or some of the more popular CRPGs.

JRT wrote:I'll bet the younger generation won't have as many fond memories of D&D but rather WoW or some of the more popular CRPGs.

When I ran an Encounters game at my FLGS for a season, I would estimate 80% of the players were in the 8-14 range, most of whom were hooked enough to buy books and start planning regular home campaigns with each other. When do I get my check?

blackprinceofmuncie wrote:

JRT wrote:I'll bet the younger generation won't have as many fond memories of D&D but rather WoW or some of the more popular CRPGs.

When I ran an Encounters game at my FLGS for a season, I would estimate 80% of the players were in the 8-14 range, most of whom were hooked enough to buy books and start planning regular home campaigns with each other. When do I get my check?

What is encounters?

blackprinceofmuncie wrote:

JRT wrote:I'll bet the younger generation won't have as many fond memories of D&D but rather WoW or some of the more popular CRPGs.

When I ran an Encounters game at my FLGS for a season, I would estimate 80% of the players were in the 8-14 range, most of whom were hooked enough to buy books and start planning regular home campaigns with each other. When do I get my check?

WoW can't provide the same experience that D&D can. Those who are looking for that experience, will find their way, whether it's our game or another. Dismissing the younger generation as too vapid, distracted, or indoctrinated to appreciate something of value, is a mistake. Hell, last I heard, some of them were even still reading books.

Technology has yet to replace decent DM's. And Gary Gygax's game is timeless, meaningful, beautiful and valid, for those who grok it. Some people find value in imagining that other's can't, or won't.

Mike Mearls wrote:I have a theory that in the days of AD&D, there were a few things at work that helped shape D&D. In the AD&D days, the rules had enough leeway for DM judgment calls that a group could bend and twist the rules to fit the DM’s feel for how things should work. One DM could hand wave details, while another would do a lot of research and incorporate as much realism into the game as possible. Thus, while the design might have pointed in one direction, DMs can and did alter the game as they saw fit.

With the release of 3rd Edition, we saw a new trend that 4th Edition only strengthened. The rules became more comprehensive and easier to use. A DM was still free to modify them, but it became a lot easier to just use the rules as written. I think that’s when you started to see divisions among D&D players come to the fore. We always played the game differently, but now that we were a little more reliant on the rules those difference became more obvious.

If people play D&D in such a variety of different ways, then what’s left to unite us?

WOW I had not read that one!

Almost a complete countersense. This is almost fabulous in its expression of a parallel reality where rules upon rules liberate people from the use of their dreaded imaginations and making a role playing game your own is a horrible thing for the newbie, not a draw and specificity of the medium.

This is a gem. Brilliant!

thedungeondelver wrote:

Clangador wrote:D&D is dead to me. All that we have that is truly ours are the retro-clones like OSRIC.

Should I PM you my address? I can always use spare 1e Players Handbooks, Monster Manuals, DMGs, etc.

Just no post Unearthed Arcana stuff, though, please.

I still use my stuff as support material for OSRIC.

What I should have said is Hasborg may own D&D, but nobody owns OSRIC.

Odhanan wrote:

Mike Mearls wrote:I have a theory that in the days of AD&D, there were a few things at work that helped shape D&D. In the AD&D days, the rules had enough leeway for DM judgment calls that a group could bend and twist the rules to fit the DM’s feel for how things should work. One DM could hand wave details, while another would do a lot of research and incorporate as much realism into the game as possible. Thus, while the design might have pointed in one direction, DMs can and did alter the game as they saw fit.

With the release of 3rd Edition, we saw a new trend that 4th Edition only strengthened. The rules became more comprehensive and easier to use. A DM was still free to modify them, but it became a lot easier to just use the rules as written. I think that’s when you started to see divisions among D&D players come to the fore. We always played the game differently, but now that we were a little more reliant on the rules those difference became more obvious.

If people play D&D in such a variety of different ways, then what’s left to unite us?

WOW I had not read that one!

Almost a complete countersense. This is almost fabulous in its expression of a parallel reality where rules upon rules liberate people from the use of their dreaded imaginations and making a role playing game your own is a horrible thing for the newbie, not a draw and specificity of the medium.

This is a gem. Brilliant!

Reading this I actual believe I understand what Mearls is talking about.

D&D/AD&D is a game almost completely dependent on the talent of the DM. Great players, bad DM, bad game. Average players, bad DM, bad game, but great DM and you normally have a great game. Mediocre DM, mediocre game on average, almost entirely regardless of the players if they actually want to play.

DMing is both a skill and an artform. Finding people who can manage both is hard. What WotC and Hasbro are trying to do is sell a game that is DM proof and that means taking both the skill and the art from the game. What is left keeps creeping closer and closer to a boardgame and further and further from a game which relies on the imagination of the DM and players, and especially on the ability of a DM to invoke the imagination of the players which may lie buried and dormant beneath the debris of modern culture and education.

So, D&D seems to have reached a point where the game can be played with a modicum of imagination safely wrapped in a cocoon of structure and rules.

I just hope they keep going along this path and put out cool boardgames. I love boardgames and some are incredibly helpful to introduce new players to the freewheeling chaos that is D&D/AD&D. HeroQuest is a fantastic little game and a wonderful starting point that helps seperate the wheat from the chaff. Some people get hooked and some want something more, and those are the people you want in your gaming group.

I would love to have seen AD&D never become popular. Gygax should have been just successful enough to keep playing and writing adventures and working on settings. I don't want or care to have every kid who can play World of Warcraft or Resident Evil or even D&D 4th edition getting involved in the game. I don't want to see people making fortunes with RPGs, though a reasonable living would be nice. I do not want a company like Hasbro, WotC or even the TSR of the 80's and 90's involved in rpgs. Slick and glossy are not positives in my book.

I hope Mearls takes WotC D&D to a boardgame future and leaves rpgs the hell alone. The people, the creative forces involved right here and now are more than enough for me, and if the poor masses of the gaming proletariat never discover pen and paper RPGs or anything better than the pablem fed to them from a corporate teat and are trapped forever in the online world of click and shoot paper thin pale imagination, then so be it. If people keep choosing the blue pill then just be glad you've choked down the red and can handle the utter chaos of an unrestricted imagination.

JasonZavoda wrote: I hope Mearls takes WotC D&D to a boardgame future and leaves rpgs the hell alone. The people, the creative forces involved right here and now are more than enough for me, and if the poor masses of the gaming proletariat never discover pen and paper RPGs or anything better than the pablem fed to them from a corporate teat and are trapped forever in the online world of click and shoot paper thin pale imagination, then so be it. If people keep choosing the blue pill then just be glad you've choked down the red and can handle the utter chaos of an unrestricted imagination.

I'd probably better clarify earlier comments of my own.
"Technology has yet to replace decent DM's. And Gary Gygax's game is timeless, meaningful, beautiful and valid, for those who grok it. Some people find value in imagining that other's can't, or won't."

I'm certainly not denying the existence of "blue-pillers." I do disagree with a rather pessimistic stance, I see some people take, which says there's not enough "red-pillers" for our hobby to survive, or even thrive. Maybe I'm just an optimist.

I'm at the point of wishing WotC goes all the way down the board-game route, myself. Times have changed, since Steve Jackson made that famous quote, that some still repeat, over and over. Even the Industry would survive the destruction of WotC. The hobbyists would keep doing their thing.

geezerdm wrote:I'm at the point of wishing WotC goes all the way down the board-game route, myself. Times have changed, since Steve Jackson made that famous quote, that some still repeat, over and over. Even the Industry would survive the destruction of WotC. The hobbyists would keep doing their thing.

damn straight!

And that comes from the CEO/CIO/COO/CFO/Vice President of R&D/Editor-in Chief/Marketing Director/Art Director/Creative Director/Author/Graphic Designer/Layout Artist/Janitor here at Usherwood Publishing...me.

JRT wrote: Right now, I agree that D&D is a very weak brand right now. Their computer games had a lot of attention in the late 90s, but brand loyalty for the CRPG side ended up going to Bioware--there's loads of CRPG fans who seem to think that they could do a Baldur's Gate 3 if they wanted to.

They had some brand loyalty of their own for a time.

Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale 2 were released by Black Isle and I know the first Icewind Dale sold really well.

Thing is, you need to change your games with the time. One reason you never hear anyone talk about Icewind Dale 2 is that it was released the same year as Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights. Guess which games had a bigger impact?

Also, I think the reason WOTC aren't making a big deal about Daggerdale is that it's not very good. The reviews have NOT been kind.

Odhanan wrote: This is almost fabulous in its expression of a parallel reality where rules upon rules liberate people from the use of their dreaded imaginations and making a role playing game your own is a horrible thing for the newbie, not a draw and specificity of the medium.

I don't think he's saying that *at all*. I think he's saying the strict definition and codification of 3e makes it a pain in the ass to houserule compared to old-school D&D, and it looks like he is admitting 4e made it worse.

Thinking about it, if WotC focused on D&D-derived boardgames in a serious way, it might actually be a good thing. Mass market boardgames, by their nature, are strongly focused on play and have (or ought to have) clear and concise rules. Among the biggest problems with later iterations of D&D is rules bloat, often occasioned by a design rooted more strongly in theory than actual play. A few years spent designing boardgames might do the WotC crew a world of good.

James Maliszewski wrote:Thinking about it, if WotC focused on D&D-derived boardgames in a serious way, it might actually be a good thing. Mass market boardgames, by their nature, are strongly focused on play and have (or ought to have) clear and concise rules.

They clearly are focusing on that aspect of the D&D brand, just have a look at their catalog.

Howling Man wrote:What is encounters?

Encounters is one of the organized play efforts that WotC started a little over one year ago. They provide short 1-2 hour scenarios (hence "Encounter") for DMs to run as open games in public places every Wednesday to draw new players into the game. The scenarios are all linked up thematically and constitute a "season", so if you play every Wednesday for the whole "season" you've essentially completed a single adventure module.