Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Vigilance wrote:This is where my dislike of 3e comes from. If you only use the core books, 3e is pretty simple, but when players start mapping out their feats and skills at 1st level to get into that sweet PrC? I'm out.

That's pretty much been my experience with it. Even I, as a player, found myself planning a character's entire level progression before even playing at all! If you don't, you could find yourself making inferior advancement decisions compared to your fellow players. The game is rigged so that some choices simply lead to crappy characters, potentially leaving a player filled with nerdy regret.

And now you see me around these parts, where the most important decisions when leveling up would be straightforward weapon proficiencies or new spells.

Assuming there’s no real money to be made in pen-and-paper RPGs anymore, is there a possibility that WotC would ever come to the conclusion that there is no point in developing any more editions? That it would be more profitable to do rolling reprints of their back catalog to regain maximal fan loyalty, and otherwise just focus on other parts of their business other than pen-and-paper RPGs?

Falconer wrote:Assuming there’s no real money to be made in pen-and-paper RPGs anymore, is there a possibility that WotC would ever come to the conclusion that there is no point in developing any more editions? That it would be more profitable to do rolling reprints of their back catalog to regain maximal fan loyalty, and otherwise just focus on other parts of their business other than pen-and-paper RPGs?

In my heart of hearts I like the idea that Wizbro would do that, but realistically, they are not going to release any IP which they feel would 'conflict' with the sales of the current edition. To them, there is only one product name ("D&D") and therefore there should only be one extant version mapped to it.

T. Foster wrote:That may be technically true, but I think it's becoming less and less true over time, and I think it's undeniable that Organized Play exerts a very large influence on what WotC does with the game (and has done with it for the past decade+) in a manner that is not necessarily compatible with, and occasionally at cross-purposes to, what would be best for the game in a non-Organized Play context.

Organized Play is D&D's original sin both in the 70s and the current round occurring now in the 2000s/2010s. The only time I don't recall it being an issue was the 80s after Dragonlance and 90s but that era developed it own ills with TSR supporting a dozen or so settings.

As much as I love AD&D now I am wondering how much of it was developed in response to TSR being bombarded with questions and issues arising out of the all the D&D tournaments being held at the time. And nearly all the early modules started out as tournament dungeons.

While some of this was great stuff when taken to an extreme led to the splatbook/edition tread ills we suffered with over the years.

Those layoffs may be even less surprising now:

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/ ... books.html

geezerdm wrote:Those layoffs may be even less surprising now:

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/ ... books.html

That would explain things, yeah.

geezerdm wrote:Those layoffs may be even less surprising now:

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/ ... books.html

I heard about this on Thursday, and chatted with an employee at a game store about it on Friday. I suggested that pen-and-paper RPGs just aren’t anywhere near the core of WotC’s strategy anymore. He agreed, and said simply, “There’s no money in pen-and-paper RPG books anymore.”

I don't think this is much of a shock.

All that proves is that 3E is more fun than 4E.

(Not that we care all that much.)

geezerdm wrote:Those layoffs may be even less surprising now:

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/ ... books.html

I have heard that was the case for some time now. Amoung current 4e was a big flop where as 3e had a following.

Falconer wrote:Assuming there’s no real money to be made in pen-and-paper RPGs anymore, is there a possibility that WotC would ever come to the conclusion that there is no point in developing any more editions? That it would be more profitable to do rolling reprints of their back catalog to regain maximal fan loyalty, and otherwise just focus on other parts of their business other than pen-and-paper RPGs?

There is still money to be made in developing D&D.

Its been this way forever, but this gives me a chance to repeat it: its really not instructive to talk about D&D and "the rpg industry" together.

D&D always has operated on an entirely different plane, by different rules, than any other RPG company.

Falconer wrote:

geezerdm wrote:Those layoffs may be even less surprising now:

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/ ... books.html

I heard about this on Thursday, and chatted with an employee at a game store about it on Friday. I suggested that pen-and-paper RPGs just aren’t anywhere near the core of WotC’s strategy anymore. He agreed, and said simply, “There’s no money in pen-and-paper RPG books anymore.”

1999, such a dear old friend. I keep running into you and here you are again!

Just replace WOTC with TSR and Paizo with White Wolf, and you could run this story unchanged in the past.

Vigilance wrote:1999, such a dear old friend. I keep running into you and here you are again!

Just replace WOTC with TSR and Paizo with White Wolf, and you could run this story unchanged in the past.

I don't see it. In 1999, D&D had basically disappeared and White Wolf was beating D&D at its own game (book publishing). In 2011, you've got WotC attempting to dramatically shift its publishing strategy; essentially abandoning print and going to an online subscription/board game model. As a result, you have a competitor who is using what is essentially D&D with another name slapped on it either nipping at D&D's heels or overtaking it in sales volume for printed books. But 4e is still a very strong presence in gaming, even if that presence isn't translating into distributed print book sales. The magazines are still rolling out to subscribers each month (unlike 1999). New titles are being announced regularly (unlike 1999). Sales of related gaming materials (novels, boardgames, dungeon tiles) still seem to be doing fine (unlike 1999). There is no question that WotC has made major gaffes with 4e in the past 3 years, but I don't see any real parallels between TSR ca. 1999 and WotC ca. 2011.

Vigilance wrote:There is still money to be made in developing D&D.

Its been this way forever, but this gives me a chance to repeat it: its really not instructive to talk about D&D and "the rpg industry" together.

D&D always has operated on an entirely different plane, by different rules, than any other RPG company.

These remarks are both cryptic and unsubstantiated.

Falconer wrote:

Vigilance wrote:There is still money to be made in developing D&D.

Its been this way forever, but this gives me a chance to repeat it: its really not instructive to talk about D&D and "the rpg industry" together.

D&D always has operated on an entirely different plane, by different rules, than any other RPG company.

These remarks are both cryptic and unsubstantiated.

To a great extent, I agree with Vigilance. TSR, and now Wizbro, has enjoyed a marketing advantage that other companies couldn't touch (well, maybe WW... but having a game based on vampires gave them an angle with the emos and creepy chicks).