Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I've tried a couple, they were fun but no substitute for a group of people at the same table. There is no way to get that 'feel' oonline where everyone's emotions and actions feed off of each other, or the gut splitting laughs that usually result.

With regards to Skype-type games (as opposed to PBP), I've had pretty good luck thus far. However, I attribute that to the fact that my core players are the same ones I played with in Grade School and High School. However, we have a number of players who I've only ever player via Skype with and they've worked out just fine. For us, being so geographically dispersed, online is our only option, though I think we'd uniformly prefer an around-the-table setup. I don't see the campaign as particularly harder for me as DM with regards to prep. As for playing, we video conference using Skype, so that helps mitigate some of the concerns with reading facial expressions and what not. We're coming up on 80 sessions, and whenever I skip a week my players bitch, so we must be doing something right.

I guess the bottom line is, just like in any game, it all depends on the DM and players to make it work. Good players + good DM = good game, no matter the format (though, for full disclosure, I tried a PBP a few months back and could not stand it because of the pacing).

p.s. We play straight AD&D.

Online gaming is a challenge (Mostly for the DM). I have not tried the skype game which might give resolution to problems in the chat games I have been in. The better organized the DM is, just as at the table, seems to make it or break it.

Chat gaming is slow and you may want to make some house rules to move some things along and there are also matters that you just gloss over in chat that you might not at the table.

Can you have fun in a chat game? Can you get more than a couple of encounters done in a single session? Yes of course, but an experienced game player who has not played online will find there is a learning curve to adapt the game into a fun and reasonably paced experience.

For my part, I have been creating maps like mad for months. One good map is a big time saver versus paragraphs of chat text. One only needs to describe the atmosphere or events in an encounter without going into room dimensions. Those DM's who have pictures ready to post also add a lot to the game I have found.

It works, with patience and drive!

As others have said, play by post or chat can work with the right group. I have found that I'm not very good at it for a variety of reasons, so I typically don't join online games. Haven't tried Skype, but some high school friends keep trying to wrestle me into it.

James Maliszewski wrote:

Philotomy Jurament wrote:For whatever reason, online gaming just doesn't do it, for me. I much prefer tabletop.

I'm much the same. I've tried it several times, in a variety of formats, and what I found is that good online gaming takes just as much (if not more) time and effort to do well as face to face tabletop gaming, at least if you're the referee. Plus, I've already got a steady group of gamers I meet with at my home, so online gaming holds little appeal to me.

One thing helpful is when you have players equally involved (more or less) if everyone posts 1x a day its fine, if everyone posts 4 times a day its fine (its when you have two or three guys posting 1 x couple days, while others want the game to move more quickly. So I guess its a matter of pace (being on the same page).

Yeah, online is no replacement for tabletop, but its better then nothing I guess.

AxeMental wrote:I think one thing helpful is when you have players equally involved (more or less). As long as 70% are posting regularly it seems to go well.

I think this is pretty important. If one guy's posting 25 times a day and another guy just checks in once a day, it doesn't work well.

Another important factor is that everyone agrees on how much "literary" writing needs to happen ("I open the door" vs. the four sentence version).

Chainsaw wrote:Another important factor is that everyone agrees on how much "literary" writing needs to happen ("I open the door" vs. the four sentence version).

This has been my biggest difficulty with online play as a player. I'm a "open the door" kinda guy. I'm that way online and at table top. The four paragraph's of internal and external monologue, complete with lush descriptions of everything...I can't stand it.

On this point I'm in disagreement with Kramer. For me, nothing sucks the fun and life out of a game more quickly than some aspiring writer and their purple prose. Move the pieces. Overcome the obstacles. Get out alive. Leave everything else in creative writing seminars.

That said, if a game is filled with folks getting their writing groove going...more power to them. I know that, for me, it's not a game I should join.

Flambeaux wrote:For me, nothing sucks the fun and life out of a game more quickly than some aspiring writer and their purple prose. Move the pieces. Overcome the obstacles. Get out alive. Leave everything else in creative writing seminars.

I'm mostly in agreement with this. Mostly. The only exception, IMO, is interaction with NPCs. Sometimes, you may have to go the verbose route to tease from them what you want/need.

It's very hard to write vividly with few words.

Flambeaux wrote:

Chainsaw wrote:Another important factor is that everyone agrees on how much "literary" writing needs to happen ("I open the door" vs. the four sentence version).

This has been my biggest difficulty with online play as a player. I'm a "open the door" kinda guy. I'm that way online and at table top. The four paragraph's of internal and external monologue, complete with lush descriptions of everything...I can't stand it.

On this point I'm in disagreement with Kramer. For me, nothing sucks the fun and life out of a game more quickly than some aspiring writer and their purple prose. Move the pieces. Overcome the obstacles. Get out alive. Leave everything else in creative writing seminars.

That said, if a game is filled with folks getting their writing groove going...more power to them. I know that, for me, it's not a game I should join.

Depends on the quality and if its relevent. If some guys want to describe what they want to do in 2-4 sentences, thats not too much to ask (infact it may be the thing making it feel like a face to face table game). At that point it just depends if they are cool 1E style guys or not. Now, you get some 2Etarded style poster (rambling on about honor or feelings) then yeah, put a mussel on him and give him the Christopher Pike "yes no" blinking light. Get some 1E guy on there planning how he wants to put a trail of oil down leading to an inferno trap, mentioning "I'm going to fry those dirty bastards"...well not only is it entertaining reading, its necessary for the DM to understand what he's planning. What the real problem is is the "politeness factor" -no one will say outright, "your posts about your feelings are horrible" they just let the pore fool continue, and eventually the game is dropped by all. The politeness factor has ruined many a good game, party, work environment, date...you name it.

AxeMental wrote:What the real problem is is the "politeness factor" -no one will say outright, "your posts about your feelings are horrible" they just let the pore fool continue, and eventually the game is dropped by all. The politeness factor has ruined many a good game, party, work environment, date...you name it.

True. In my first go around as a player in an online game I took my character down in a blaze of glory (stupid suicidal attacks, bad play decisions,etc) to get out of the game instead of telling one of the other players that he was ruining the game for me (by making bad decisions, not listening to or seeking advice from the other players, etc). If it was at a tabletop, I would have had much less problem telling him what was up. Instead, I just got frustrated and extracted myself from the game.

AxeMental wrote:Yeah, online is no replacement for tabletop, but its better then nothing I guess.

And that's what says it all.

I run a game w/ my friend in Sacramento via text messages. I use OSRIC and he plays a Paladin w/ one henchman so far. It seems to work pretty well for the two of us.

Because we are scattered across the country we meet on-line and game. We been doing this for over three years. We use Fantasy Grounds, plus Skype with few glitches. The package of technology is called a Virtual Tabletop. And it has nothing to do with MMORPGs like World of Warcraft. Rather it is an outgrowth of voice over internet, and virtual whiteboard technology.

In a nutshell it is tabletop gaming. You do the same prep, use the same products, and the same techniques as you do around the table. There are differences. Even advantages to using a Virtual Tabletop. Given equal circumstances I rather game in person, but not all circumstances are equal.

At it's most basic a virtual tabletop consist of several things. A whiteboard on which you can display images, the whiteboard allows the placement of token to show positions, a text chat, and a dice rolling system that can be seen by the referee and other players. Typically the referee's rolls are hidden but not always the case.

The advantage of Virtual Tabletop are
Images are cheap, no ink or anything, just download and make it available to your players. My one friend used this to great effect in the campaign he refereed.

Truly private messaging, you can pass notes, and have side conversations without other players being aware of it.

Fog of War, probably the best aspect of VTTs is the ability to put up an entire map and mask everything but the one little area the party sees. One the referee side the mask is transparent so you can see with under neath.

Automation of rules, Fantasy Grounds works by having rule sets that adapt the game to a particular RPG. The best of them have character sheets/combat roster that track abilities, skill rolls, status, and modifiers. Also they have a sidebar where you can access a rulebook.

Disadvantages
Video isn't quite up to snuff yet so gesturing and facial expression are non-existent.

In tabletop it just plain easier to pull random stuff off your shelf or draw it on a piece of paper. VTTs require a bit of technical skill to do things on the fly.

You need to be able to run a server for players to connect to you, generally means knowing how to open a port on your firewall/router. Or you need to pay a subscription to connect a central server like the D&D 4e VTT. Fantasy Grounds requires a port to be open.

The better VTTs require everybody to have bought a license or have a paid subscription. The market is all over the place on this. There are free VTTs and some, like MapTools, work well for most people.

Last, and I can't stress this enough, VTTs are of vital importance to the hobby. And, unlike MMORPGs, they are not a competitor to face to face tabletop. VTTs are important because they allow groups to play that otherwise couldn't. Again VTTs are not either or technology. My own group plays on Fantasy Grounds for weeks at a time and then about two or three times a year get together to play a face to face session with the same campaign.

The technology is always improving and gets better each year. We will see easy to configure VTTs on iPads style tablets become an important part of tabletop gaming.

I run a bi-weekly face to face campaign at the Gold Star Anime in Edinboro PA, and part of a weekly campaign with a group of my oldest friends using Fantasy Grounds. I just finished refereeing a Swords & Wizardry campaign with them, and now my friend is starting up a GURPS campaign.

Cimmerian wrote:Online gaming is a challenge (Mostly for the DM). I have not tried the skype game which might give resolution to problems in the chat games I have been in. The better organized the DM is, just as at the table, seems to make it or break it.

Skype (or any other VOIP application) turn the on-line game to the next best thing to face to face. Without voice, there are issues. I use the text chat feature of Skype or Fantasy Groups for individual messages and detailed descriptions.