Knights & Knaves Alehouse

This ground has been covered before, but its been awhile.
Curious to know how your tables (and as DMs) how you deal with this tricky class. Btb, if you read spells like Phantasmal Force, you see that the spell can do real damage. And there doesn't seem to be a limit (a pit with 1 spike would do less damage then one with 3 such spikes, all else being equal...if you read the description).

So, do you allow illusions to inflict real damage that must be healed in the usual way, or do you see them as inflicting some sort of temporary damage, or perhaps not allow them any sort of damage at all (when playing 1E AD&D).

Early on we deteremined the class impossible to deal with without some made up rules. We simply limit phantasmal force to 1d6 per level to all effected per level (so a 3rd level illusionist would do 3d6 to any that failed to save). Anyone else come up with something similar? We also never went with illusionary damage because there doesn't seem to be any destinction in the spells.

Illusion spells do not not inflict real damage in my game. If they fail the saving throw versus the spell they thought hit them. they will suffer illusory damage. If that illusory damage overcomes the real hit points of the character, that character will go unconscious.

Once the threat of the illusionist is over (killed or whatever), the character will regain consciousness.

Illusions cause damage that seems real enough (i.e. is reduced from a character's HP total) up to the point of death. Death is going unconscious instead. Folks that disbelieve have illusory damage they have taken restored (1 hp/round if necessary to track time that close).
So I guess I go with "real temporary" damage!

Ragnorakk wrote:Illusions cause damage that seems real enough (i.e. is reduced from a character's HP total) up to the point of death. Death is going unconscious instead. Folks that disbelieve have illusory damage they have taken restored (1 hp/round if necessary to track time that close).
So I guess I go with "real temporary" damage!

I deal with it in a similar way but usually allow near instant restoration of any hp lost to perceived damage when one realizes it was all an illusion. I think in some situations I might rule a player is stunned or confused for a round or two though.

AxeMental wrote:So, do you allow illusions to inflict real damage that must be healed in the usual way, or do you see them as inflicting some sort of temporary damage, or perhaps not allow them any sort of damage at all (when playing 1E AD&D).

I haven't looked closely at the AD&D description of phantasmal force and related spells, so perhaps there's a nuance I've forgotten, but my recollection is that, as written, these spells do "real" damage if their target either believes their effects or, after disbelief, fails his saving throw vs. spells. That is, they can cause a character to die, not merely fall unconscious.

So, is there anything in the text to lend credence to another interpretation?

James Maliszewski wrote:

AxeMental wrote:So, do you allow illusions to inflict real damage that must be healed in the usual way, or do you see them as inflicting some sort of temporary damage, or perhaps not allow them any sort of damage at all (when playing 1E AD&D).

I haven't looked closely at the AD&D description of phantasmal force and related spells, so perhaps there's a nuance I've forgotten, but my recollection is that, as written, these spells do "real" damage if their target either believes their effects or, after disbelief, fails his saving throw vs. spells. That is, they can cause a character to die, not merely fall unconscious.

So, is there anything in the text to lend credence to another interpretation?

No, your correct, real damage is stated in the spell description. It seems Gygax left the functional details (how to control damage in a progressive manner so that a higher level caster does more damage then a lower level caster) up to each DM to figure out (obviously, he didn't intend on this spell being so deadly at such low levels). I think "illusionary damage" is a house rule that works as well, though it is at odds with the spell description. Thats why we went with 1d6 per level of caster to those that fail to save in area of effect (that is the max, the caster can do less if he chooses or none at all depending on what his illusion is).

BTB.

An illusionist's magic can cause real damage and real death. I like to run that by the book.

In my opinion, the illusionist is the most challenging and the most rewarding class to play. It avoids the lazy rut all too many magic-users fall into: "Uh, I blast it with a fireball." An illusionist, more so than any other class, depends upon the skill and the imagination of the player for its effectiveness. The class is perhaps the single weakest one in the hands of an oafish player, and perhaps the strongest class in the hands of a clever and imaginative player.

I love the idea that an illusion can cause real damage. Just like an aikido master might use your own strength against you, an illusionist's magic leverages your credulity to enhance its power. You know how AD&D spells tap power from other planes? I see illusionist spells as also tapping power from their target -- just a tiny bit that's given by the target and acts as a sort of catalyst added to the spell's "supersaturated solution" of energy.

It's not real damage until you, the target, make it real. I think that's a cool concept, and puts a different, even sinister, spin on illusionists. (Just typing this makes me want to create an evil illusionist.)

BTB.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:BTB.

How do you guys limit the max damage applicable. For instance, if a PC falls into a trap 20 feet deep with 2 spikes he takes x damage, with 3 spikes x+1-6 damage, with 6 spikes x +4(1-6) and so on (assuming he falls on all spikes). It would follow that the same would be true for illusionists creating a pit trap illusion.

Played them, DM'd them! Like em as NPC's HATE them as players. Major problem is the fact that they are always, always confined only by imagination. Too many plot tricks can be countered with just ONE illusionists spell.

Okay they really only effect beings (rather than inanimate) but I would prefer to play with the players, rather than having an illusionist play with me.

Like having some of the spells floating about though and so M/U may get a spell or two from the illusionists list.

Err I always "read" into the rules that ALL the subclasses were sort of campaign specific. Druids work well only in certain places, and having Monk play within a western campaign can be problematical. Remember the series Kung Fu? EGG must have been a fan, and AD&D was being tested and put together at that time.

So basically unless I have written a style of adventure that will suit a particular sub-class I don't use it. No good having a Paladin living and playing in my pirates game!

AxeMental wrote:

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:BTB.

How do you guys limit the max damage applicable. For instance, if a PC falls into a trap 20 feet deep with 2 spikes he takes x damage, with 3 spikes x+1-6 damage, with 6 spikes x +4(1-6) and so on (assuming he falls on all spikes). It would follow that the same would be true for illusionists creating a pit trap illusion.

I don't. If a player of an illusionist is clever enough to use an illusion in such a way as to force a save or die on my monster, more power to him. This is an advantage that illusionists have in exchange for not having all the heavy artillery (both in spells and in magic items) of regular magic-users.

So how do you btb DM's determine how much damage one perceives they have taken from a particular illusion? An adventurer will clearly know the effects of taking an arrow to the leg but how will they perceive a 3 foot wave hitting them when they've never been to the ocean? For example, in Hawaii it's common for tourists to underestimate the power of a 2 or 3 foot wave and turn their back on the ocean and end up getting face planted in the sand, sometimes resulting in serious neck and back injuries. So one who believes they are getting hit by a wall of water may perceive the effects of the illusion differently.

If illusionary damage is always real damage why use anything other than illusions that will cause perceived catastrophic damage to make sure your opponents are dead? Why even waste time on an illusionary spell that does 6d6 damage when you can just have the cavern ceiling collapse on your enemy for an automatic kill with a failed save? How do you differentiate between the effective real damage of something like phantasmal force versus a higer level spell like improved phantasmal force, and what's the use of the killing ability of phantasmal killer when these lower level spells can essentially do the same job with less chance of failure?

huekim wrote:For example, in Hawaii it's common for tourists to underestimate the power of a 2 or 3 foot wave and turn their back on the ocean and end up getting face planted in the sand, sometimes resulting in serious neck and back injuries. So one who believes they are getting hit by a wall of water may perceive the effects of the illusion differently.

Then the damage will vary depending on the target's assumptions.