Illusionists, how do you DM them?

[PapersAndPaychecks]

How do you guys limit the max damage applicable. For instance, if a PC falls into a trap 20 feet deep with 2 spikes he takes x damage, with 3 spikes x+1-6 damage, with 6 spikes x +4(1-6) and so on (assuming he falls on all spikes). It would follow that the same would be true for illusionists creating a pit trap illusion.

No limit on the damage.

It has to be plausible that the character would believe the illusion, though, mate. If it's not plausible that the character would believe it, then he automatically saves. So if the illusionist gestures and chants after which a pit appears in front of him out of thin air, then the character goes, "Aha! An illusion! But see, I am not fooled!" and casually skips over the illusionary pit before brutally hacking the illusionist's head off with a lochaber +1.

On the other hand, if the character rounds a corner into an area he's never seen before and, oops, there's a 20ft deep pit with spikes barring his passage, then he definitely believes it.

I've found that with an illusion, the best use is often not to make the floor look like a pit, but to make a pit look like a floor...

[AxeMental]

If illusionary damage is always real damage why use anything other than illusions that will cause perceived catastrophic damage to make sure your opponents are dead?

Thats just it. Instead of having a very creative spell at the disposal of the player, you have an all or nothing uncreative thing (why trick opponents when you could outright kill them for instance). Simply determine what the target will be familiar with given its type and apply an illusion that would inflict massive damage (lightning out of a cloud to a griffin, a cave in to orcs in a mine etc.).

Thats why some sort of progressive damage system (a house rule) would be in order I think.

The BTB method also tends to put excessive pressure on both the player and DM (one trying to always present a bullet proof illusion (these creatures would be familiar with this type of damage because...) the other trying to drill holes into it to explain why it didn't work (well this type of damage isn't likely in this type of tunnel...) and it could quickly turn into bad feelings. Conversely, the NPC monster illusionist could wipe out the entire high level party with a single Phantasmal Force spell (even at first level -if they were all in range and failed against magic) with an unimaginative spell. The DM would likely want to be creative with this spell however, but then why would the NPC do something so foolish as to keep on the kid gloves (rather then put on the brass knuckles and wipe everyone out or at least maximum punishment with something like a cave in)?

I believe the illusionist class and assassin (auto hitting on an assassination attempt regardless of opponent AC) were created in a minimal ways to spare their freshness and keep their possibilities thus giving maximum latitude to the DM to create some sort of system on his whim. Despite being frustrating, I wouldn't want it any other way.

[EOTB]

Illusions have to do real damage, otherwise the class imo is too limited in utility/effectiveness as compared to a real M-U. It is very powerful against humanoids, but will be at a disadvantage against many other challenges that an adventuring party could face (undead, automatons, extremely intelligent foes, etc.) I've never capped damage per level; it's always situational. Very clever players will be more sucessful, as already noted.

As far as DMing the mechanics, the player describes the situation/effect being created, and I get the players input into the amount of damage thought to be inflicted by the spell. I, however, actually determine the damage (though this is not necessarily different from the player's estimation).

The check on the illusionist is the act of disbelief. If I remember right, in one of the articles in Dragon on illusionists, the concept of PC experience with what is being effected impacting others disbelief saves was brought out, and I use that. Also some others.

factors on the disbelief save:

target unaware/has no reason to suspect facing an illusionist - to save
Illusionist has 1st hand experience with effect - to save
target has 1st hand experience, illusionist does not + to save
effect (in)consistent with environment + or - to save
illusionist not 100% concentrating on the illusion + to save (This is subjective - an illusionist is supposed to be doing nothing other than maintaining the spell, so if a player is directing/advising other players substantially from round to round, I could rule that they must be dividing their attentions between the illusion and what is going on around them)
Illusionist not causing the illusion to react in a believable manner with outside forces + to save (related, but slightly different to the above - like if an enemy fighter scored a "20" but the illusionist didn't have the effect act as if hit)

Stuff like that. + and - are usually not huge. The save for disbelief already assumes some of this stuff. But yeah, real damage and really effective against humans.

The best illusionists mix real monsters with their illusions. If a player starts disbelieving all the time, they have to spend a round doing it and if they're doing it against a real monster, that monster is going to whack them. A player should always be unsure if it wants to lose a round disbelieving or not before it does, when facing a well-played illusionist

[thorvald1k]

Our house rules state that you can only create an illusion of stuff you have studied IE a door and a chest etc. being common can be made almost perfect, but you would have to study a dragon for a while to be able to cast a perfect illusion of one.
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An example of the spell vs reality:
PF is cast to be a stone-masons chisel, the illusionist adds AG to make sounds, the craftman (who is not expecting an illusion) starts work. By the rules while the Illusionist is concentrating, the mason will work away at the stone and create a masterpeice, which when the spell ends will return to the solid rock that it was, the stone being unable to beleive the illusion and therefor not take damage.

Wrong! Each round the mason will get a save, although the Illusionist may have been a mason by trade and get the sounds, chippings etc exactly right, the Illusionist cannot create finished peice and the mason may notice the diffence between the Illusionists and his style.

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The Illusionist should never resort to blast-ems, he has hirelings for causing damage surely? Remember that an Illusionist plays on people MINDS, not their bodies. Remember they have a 3rd level spell, at first level, that can effect 100's of creatures at a time!

[AxeMental]

How do you guys limit the max damage applicable. For instance, if a PC falls into a trap 20 feet deep with 2 spikes he takes x damage, with 3 spikes x+1-6 damage, with 6 spikes x +4(1-6) and so on (assuming he falls on all spikes). It would follow that the same would be true for illusionists creating a pit trap illusion.

No limit on the damage.

It has to be plausible that the character would believe the illusion, though, mate. If it's not plausible that the character would believe it, then he automatically saves. So if the illusionist gestures and chants after which a pit appears in front of him out of thin air, then the character goes, "Aha! An illusion! But see, I am not fooled!" and casually skips over the illusionary pit before brutally hacking the illusionist's head off with a lochaber +1.

On the other hand, if the character rounds a corner into an area he's never seen before and, oops, there's a 20ft deep pit with spikes barring his passage, then he definitely believes it.

I've found that with an illusion, the best use is often not to make the floor look like a pit, but to make a pit look like a floor...

What I'm referring to is your second example. If the pit trap is 20 feet deep with 3 spikes it will do less then one identical with 10 spikes BTB. The person has already failed to save (lets both assume that), whats at question is this, should a 1st level illusionists spell do less then a 13th? BTB clearly the answer is no (similar to sleep, it doesn't get more powerful as levels increase the way fire ball or magic missile does). But thats problematic then, as every illusionist will want to include enough spikes to kill rather then mame (include 10 spikes rather then 3). One way to deal with this is to limit damage by level, another is to make it illusionary damage, and yet another no damage.

[Bargle]

There is a damage limit per se for players. Insofar as they must have personally witnessed something to recreate it, so no illusion of demogorgon or a red dragon by a 3rd level illusionist for example as it would be instantly disbelieved. Even if a low level illusionist had met and chatted with demogorgon, since Phantasmal Force is missing thermal, sound, and smell, any creature witnessing his illusion would be granted an automatic chance to disbelieve (aka save vs. spells)...and finally demogorgon might take offense at someone using his likeness for commercial purposes (gold aquisition) without his express written permission... So, to recreate a demogorgon or red dragon that didn't grant a save would require spectral force or shadow magic.

When it comes to NPC's I'm some what sympathetic to your argument axemental as the DM has carte blanche to create whatever illusion he wants. However, given the nature of 1e (save or die in many cases for many things). The fact that an illusionist could create an illusion of a bottomless pit that would swallow and automatically kill a PC (first task is pushing the PC into the pit of course, they aren't just going to jump in it, so "strike one" against the illusionist there) is that the illusionist could just buy a poison dagger, and stab the guy and--viola! save or die.

And most importantly, NPC wizard can have a staff of the magi, or a wand of fire, or a wand of magic missiles, or a staff of power, etc. None of those things can the illusionist use. What does he gain for this?

As I said in a similar thread over at dragonsfoot:

I think part of the desire to nerf illusionists comes from many DM's niggardly attitude toward magic items. illusionists cannot use any combat wands, nor can they employ any staffs whatsoever. Unfortunately, DM's don't let magic-users have any wands or staves or crystal balls with extra powers etc and so then the proscription of said magic items for illusionists is no detriment to the class. In 0d&d a magic user could make his own wand of magic-missiles as early as 3rd-4th level if he saved his gold.

Indeed, the PHB plainly states that the extreme puissance of illusionist magic is specifically offset by the magic users ability to use these magic items.

gary gygax PHB pg. 26 wrote:
...the power of the illusionists due to their spells is offset...by the limitations on the magic items they can use.


So yeah, if you play in a low magic item campaign then you will need to do something to nerf illusionist spells.

An NPC wizard could fly in the air and unleash 99 fireballs from his wand at a group of PC's while being protected by a globe of invulnrability and protection from normal missiles. I think, an NPC illusionist can make a pit with spikes in it and have it deal real damage . I mean think about how much more vulnerable illusionists are in actual melee as they have no wands or staves or weapons to fall back on. No wand of magic missiles or lightning bolt when all that's standing between them and a fighter is initiative-weapon speed vs. casting time!

What I'm referring to is your second example. If the pit trap is 20 feet deep with 3 spikes it will do less then one identical with 10 spikes BTB. The person has already failed to save (lets both assume that), whats at question is this, should a 1st level illusionists spell do less then a 13th?

Let's take this example:
The 1st level mu casts sleep, no save a bunch of goblins will die.
1st level ill. casts a spell were a 20 foot deep pit with spikes in it opens up under a group of goblins. Goblins get a save. (somewhat unbelievable a pit opens up under them silently...)

1st level mu casts sleep, no save 1 ogre will die.
1st level ill casts a spell (40x40 is the limit of his illusion) so I would rule the pit could not be deeper than 40 feet. Ogre takes 4d6 damage from the fall, but I would grant as a save as a silent pit opening up under him is somewhat unbelievable, no save if the illusion were cast before the ogre arrived, but then you have only created a barrier and not killed the ogre.

The 13th level illusionist could make an illusion of a 170 (40x40+10' per level) foot deep pit (or it's opposite a cliff), but then again small recompense for not being able to use wands, or staves, or crystal balls!

[Tholianweb]

I prefer the example of illusions in the famous module I2 - Tomb of the Lizard King more specifically when the adventurers are going deeper into the dungeon they find the illusory river that is covering the real threat, vats of acid.

[PapersAndPaychecks]

What I'm referring to is your second example. If the pit trap is 20 feet deep with 3 spikes it will do less then one identical with 10 spikes BTB. The person has already failed to save (lets both assume that), whats at question is this, should a 1st level illusionists spell do less then a 13th? BTB clearly the answer is no (similar to sleep, it doesn't get more powerful as levels increase the way fire ball or magic missile does).

Correct, this is how I would run it.

But thats problematic then, as every illusionist will want to include enough spikes to kill rather then mame (include 10 spikes rather then 3). One way to deal with this is to limit damage by level, another is to make it illusionary damage, and yet another no damage.

But this isn't how to play an illusionist. You don't want to kill the goblins. As an illusionist, what you want is to make them attack their friends, or retrieve large amounts of treasure from trap-filled areas and bring it to you, or even better, to die in the attempt, revealing the locations of the traps in the process. Or else you want to capture them so that they can reveal important secrets to you and then you can charm them.

An illusionist who's using his powers to kill monsters isn't being played efficiently.

Oh--I've just thought. The way I rule about undead's senses is very unfavourable to illusionists, who basically can't affect undead very much img.

[Bargle]

I prefer the example of illusions in the famous module I2 - Tomb of the Lizard King more specifically when the adventurers are going deeper into the dungeon they find the illusory river that is covering the real threat, vats of acid.

omg that's awesome.

[Bargle]

What I'm referring to is your second example. If the pit trap is 20 feet deep with 3 spikes it will do less then one identical with 10 spikes BTB. The person has already failed to save (lets both assume that), whats at question is this, should a 1st level illusionists spell do less then a 13th? BTB clearly the answer is no (similar to sleep, it doesn't get more powerful as levels increase the way fire ball or magic missile does).

Correct, this is how I would run it.

Hmm. Given the are of effect limitations (40x40 at 1st level), I wouldn't allow a 1st level illusionist to make it appear as if an ogre is approaching from more than 40' away, I also wouldn't allow a pit more than 40' feet deep, so indeed the pit damage is more akin to the fireball than the sleep spell as a 13th level caster can make an ogre appear 170' away or a 170' foot pit. I don't think the illusion of distance should be able to circumvent the area effect limitations of the spell and by level.

[Tholianweb]

I prefer the example of illusions in the famous module I2 - Tomb of the Lizard King more specifically when the adventurers are going deeper into the dungeon they find the illusory river that is covering the real threat, vats of acid.

omg that's awesome.

I agree that in this specific case, the players HAVE to make multiple successful attempts to disbelieve the illusion in order to get to the vats of acid. Great example....;D

[AxeMental]

But this isn't how to play an illusionist. You don't want to kill the goblins. As an illusionist, what you want is to make them attack their friends, or retrieve large amounts of treasure from trap-filled areas and bring it to you, or even better, to die in the attempt, revealing the locations of the traps in the process. Or else you want to capture them so that they can reveal important secrets to you and then you can charm them.

An illusionist who's using his powers to kill monsters isn't being played efficiently.

Oh--I've just thought. The way I rule about undead's senses is very unfavourable to illusionists, who basically can't affect undead very much img.

Food for thought. Yes, undead, and very low intel are a big problem for this class.

[Lilaxe]

How do you rule illusions affecting creatures with low or non intelligence?

[Geoffrey]

Illuminating comments, Bargle!

[Tholianweb]

How do you rule illusions affecting creatures with low or non intelligence?

immunity to illusions since their minds are not affected by such complexity