Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Chainsaw wrote:Stuart, thanks for that info. Now I shake my head at some companions wearing field and full plate into the dungeon, jumping into pits and crawling through holes and such.

Hell, even boiled leather is fairly heavy and bulky. Gygax was right to include the concept of bulk in encumberance.

It can be a pain in the ass getting through some trails on hikes with a small pack on your back, or trying to press through some briars on a hunt wearing Carharts and carrying a shotgun, let alone metal armor, extra weapons sticking out, etc.

Matthew wrote: Generally speaking, the consensus amongst reenactors and historians is that the encumbrance of armour has been vastly overestimated in years gone by, largely because poor quality modern reconstructions of armour and weapons are far heavier than their historical counterparts, particularly what is available and affordable for enthusiasts. Even the above mentioned figure of 100 lbs is probably an overestimation, but not completely out of whack. If we consider that the modern military carries a load of something like 60-80 lbs, it is probably not unreasonable to imagine a medieval warrior operating under a similar load.

So, do you guys think IRL a person could keep their plate (and all their under garment) on 24/7 (including sleep) without getting sores, burning up etc. How long do you re-enactors keep your armor on before you run into difficulties? Could you wear it for days at a time (without taking it off) for instance?

I've slept in mail. I don't doubt that sleeping in plate is possible. A fit, battle-trained man might keep it on for a couple of days without penalty.

Matthew wrote: Generally speaking, the consensus amongst reenactors and historians is that the encumbrance of armour has been vastly overestimated in years gone by, largely because poor quality modern reconstructions of armour and weapons are far heavier than their historical counterparts, particularly what is available and affordable for enthusiasts. Even the above mentioned figure of 100 lbs is probably an overestimation, but not completely out of whack. If we consider that the modern military carries a load of something like 60-80 lbs, it is probably not unreasonable to imagine a medieval warrior operating under a similar load.

I've discussed with military history buffs (modern and ancient) that there is a tendency to laden soldiers with as much stuff as humanly possible to ensure maximum survivability and ability to kill the enemy. As technology changes, more stuff gets added, but the weight remains roughly the same. Usually there is a "march weight" and a "fighting weight," which I'd be curious to see how the numbers match up from antiquity on to modern times.

The biggest thing is conditioning your body to handle "typical" activity with that weight. I remember reading in MHQ (I think) back in the 90s where they found an ancient text which detailed a lot of the calisthenics knights undertook in the Middle Ages. Physical Training was just as much a part of their lives as it is for soldiers in the 21st century. Waving the hand of D&Dness, I'd say that all PCs are "conditioned" to any Armor that their class is allowed.

AxeMental wrote: So, do you guys think IRL a person could keep their plate (and all their under garment) on 24/7 (including sleep) without getting sores, burning up etc. How long do you re-enactors keep your armor on before you run into difficulties? Could you wear it for days at a time (without taking it off) for instance?

Off the top of my head, I'd say you could go your Wisdom/5 days before it'd bother you. Why Wisdom? Because working in heavy armor is 25% physical toughness, 75% mental toughness. It's going to suck. Think of how bad it is when you sleep with your shoes on, multiplied tenfold. The thing is about sleeping in Armor is that it doesn't REALLY get that much worse physically as time goes on. What gets you is the gnawing annoyance over time.

AxeMental wrote: So, do you guys think IRL a person could keep their plate (and all their under garment) on 24/7 (including sleep) without getting sores, burning up etc. How long do you re-enactors keep your armor on before you run into difficulties? Could you wear it for days at a time (without taking it off) for instance?

Yes, one time I wore a coat of plates and articulated plate arms and legs for the better part of three days including sleeping outside while playing NERO, a boffer style LARP, in the 1990s. The nice thing about the armor is that I had a wider choice of ground I could sleep on outdoor compared to my regular clothes. But I had to position myself just so to have the armor support me while I am sleeping.

Some observation about wearing armor for a long time in no particular order.

You need a change of undergarment to make it bearable. For me in NERO it was changing the undershirt, socks, and shorts I wore underneath. I could deal with it if I couldn't but it would suck ... a lot.

The most important part of the armor are the straps. Maintain them well as they are the key to have the whole suit fitting properly. Want to disable a fighter go and cut all the straps on their nice suit of plates.

Properly fitted armor is key for endurance, and agility. Which is why I find it reasonable to say for plate armor found in the dungeon the player can't just put it on. All the straps need to be adjusted.

You can do just about anything armored as in regular cloths just not as long. How long depends on your endurance and strenght. And as mentioned earlier it is just as much about mental toughness as physical.

Chain is several time worse than plate for endurance. With Plate armor you can distribute the weight so that the entire body is working to carry the armor. A chain tunic is all off your shoulder and the crown of your head.
Plate is easier to clean than chain.

Over time people will strip down to the lightest set of gear they feel they can get away with.

In addition to being fitted you need to arrange your armor pieces so your body can breath. I had my adjusted so that as I moved it circulated enough air that I didn't keel over from heat exhaustion.

Like winter clothing arrange your armor in layers. When you deal with different climates or situations you know what to doff or put one.

I played a paladin type using my armor with a surcoat over it. Later I had a secondary character that was a highlander type and used a full nine yard kilt. The kilt easily fit over my full gear. For day to day wear the kilt was awesome piece of a gear compared to the surcoat. I could hide a shortsword on my back with it one (and it came in handy several times). It could be used as a blanket as well. I even pulled a cloak of elvenkind once with it because it was russet brown and black and blended into the woods. Putting the kilt on was a bit tricky but I mastered after a while. Unworn it just a piece of cloth several years long and five feet or so wide. Putting it on involved pleating the whole length, belting it on, and then properly draping it.

francisca wrote:

Chainsaw wrote:Stuart, thanks for that info. Now I shake my head at some companions wearing field and full plate into the dungeon, jumping into pits and crawling through holes and such.

Hell, even boiled leather is fairly heavy and bulky. Gygax was right to include the concept of bulk in encumberance.

It can be a pain in the ass getting through some trails on hikes with a small pack on your back, or trying to press through some briars on a hunt wearing Carharts and carrying a shotgun, let alone metal armor, extra weapons sticking out, etc.

It wasn't too bad in my experience, the advantage was that you were wearing well... armor. So thorns and crap like that didn't bother me as they did normally hiking. You did have to watch still because there were places you could not swing a weapon worth anything. Thrust yes, swing no.

We also ran an event in a cave and the bulk of the armor made for a tight squeeze there. Note the cave was about as easy to get around as they come. We didn't go into the more difficult sections. In later years I paid attention to layering my armor so I would have taken off enough of my gear, push it through, after the thief of course, and put it back on the other side. Note that caves have mud, messy icky slime mud.

robertsconley wrote:Chain is several time worse than plate for endurance. With Plate armor you can distribute the weight so that the entire body is working to carry the armor. A chain tunic is all off your shoulder and the crown of your head.
Plate is easier to clean than chain.

You can make a mailshirt so it partly rests on your hips--it's a question of putting the expansion and contraction joints in the right places and then wearing a tight, broad belt.

There's also an easy way to clean a mailshirt. Pop it in a barrel half-full of sand and roll it down a hill, it's all shiny by the time it reaches the bottom.

robertsconley wrote: Yes, one time I wore a coat of plates and articulated plate arms and legs for the better part of three days including sleeping outside while playing NERO, a boffer style LARP, in the 1990s.

I have been wondering if you were THAT Rob Conley since last summer! I was roommates with Bob Wilson (from PRO) in college. Small world.

robertsconley wrote: You need a change of undergarment to make it bearable. For me in NERO it was changing the undershirt, socks, and shorts I wore underneath. I could deal with it if I couldn't but it would suck ... a lot.

That's huge. Even on short missions I'd usually pack three extra sets of t-shirts and socks when I was in the Army. I'm sure that if a medieval soldier had the ability to keep a few extra pairs, he would. Wet socks in boots can lead to trench and immersion foot. Who knows what they called it back then, but it can't be a 20th Century occurrance.

AxeMental wrote: So, do you guys think IRL a person could keep their plate (and all their under garment) on 24/7 (including sleep) without getting sores, burning up etc. How long do you re-enactors keep your armor on before you run into difficulties? Could you wear it for days at a time (without taking it off) for instance?

More than likely. As you might imagine, soldiers had nothing but complaints about doing so; during the third crusade the pilgrim warriors had to stay under arms all through the night while marching though Asia Minor, and counted it as one of their many great sufferings... of course they would say that.

poolboydeluxe wrote: I've discussed with military history buffs (modern and ancient) that there is a tendency to laden soldiers with as much stuff as humanly possible to ensure maximum survivability and ability to kill the enemy. As technology changes, more stuff gets added, but the weight remains roughly the same. Usually there is a "march weight" and a "fighting weight," which I'd be curious to see how the numbers match up from antiquity on to modern times.

No argument from me. During the late medieval period baggage trains seem to have gotten bigger for those reasons; of course, fifteen hundred years earlier, "Marius' Mules" was a reaction to the same issues.

poolboydeluxe wrote: The biggest thing is conditioning your body to handle "typical" activity with that weight. I remember reading in MHQ (I think) back in the 90s where they found an ancient text which detailed a lot of the calisthenics knights undertook in the Middle Ages. Physical Training was just as much a part of their lives as it is for soldiers in the 21st century. Waving the hand of D&Dness, I'd say that all PCs are "conditioned" to any Armor that their class is allowed.

No doubt, and in fact the DMG says as much; armour class assumes the wearer is conditioned to the use, and of course exhaustion is the reason combatants are supposed to rest for a turn after combat or any similar exertion.

poolboydeluxe wrote: I have been wondering if you were THAT Rob Conley since last summer! I was roommates with Bob Wilson (from PRO) in college. Small world.

Indeed a small world. Bob is a great guy and played a great character in-game. My character, Sir Endless Star, was often at odds with his team especially Sir Kysol. (Jim Rasche)

poolboydeluxe wrote:

robertsconley wrote: Yes, one time I wore a coat of plates and articulated plate arms and legs for the better part of three days including sleeping outside while playing NERO, a boffer style LARP, in the 1990s.

I have been wondering if you were THAT Rob Conley since last summer! I was roommates with Bob Wilson (from PRO) in college. Small world.

robertsconley wrote: You need a change of undergarment to make it bearable. For me in NERO it was changing the undershirt, socks, and shorts I wore underneath. I could deal with it if I couldn't but it would suck ... a lot.

That's huge. Even on short missions I'd usually pack three extra sets of t-shirts and socks when I was in the Army. I'm sure that if a medieval soldier had the ability to keep a few extra pairs, he would. Wet socks in boots can lead to trench and immersion foot. Who knows what they called it back then, but it can't be a 20th Century occurrance.

Whats NERO exactly?

AxeMental wrote: Whats NERO exactly?

New England Roleplaying Organizaon. It's one of the bigger national chains of boffer LARPs. It had all kinds of legal drama in the late 90s among the owners. It was fun when I played, but I can't say I miss it.

AxeMental wrote: Whats NERO exactly?

Game was basically D&D in the woods and it took off because it had one of the first rule systems designed for a LARP that worked well and actively recruited groups into a national chapter system. The rules were a point buy system with varying costs based on your class. (Weapon skill were cheaper for fighter, spells cheaper for mages). The points costs were setup so what resulted was a traditional D&D party.

The basic system was you were allowed to hit a person in the body (not head or groin) with a foam weapon or with a seed packet (a small light and safe bean bag )

Weapons skill was represented by the ability to do more damage with a foam weapon. Spells were memorized and you had to say a short incant ("I forth a magic missile") and if you hit with the packet, the spell took effect. The other skills basically allow you to attempt various in-game action. For example to attempt pick a lock, you had to have the pick lock skill. But if you had it you had to actually figure out how disassemble the lock. You couldn't wave your character card and say "I pick the lock." There were a bunch of skills dealing with crafting items and magic items.

A lot of stuff normally in a skill based RPG is not present in NERO rules as the emphasis is on the player actually doing things (in a safe manner). If you found a room you suspected had treasure or traps, you had to search it yourself. It was very old school in that regard.

I owned a NERO Chapter in NW PA for five years and was involved in the Pittsburgh Chapter for seven years prior to that.

NERO Larp is its own form of roleplaying game neither better or worse than tabletop. Somethings it does better and others it is highly limited. There are lot of tabletop gamers and MMORPGers among the players but there are many that have NERO as their only form of roleplaying.

poolboydeluxe wrote:The biggest thing is conditioning your body to handle "typical" activity with that weight. I remember reading in MHQ (I think) back in the 90s where they found an ancient text which detailed a lot of the calisthenics knights undertook in the Middle Ages. Physical Training was just as much a part of their lives as it is for soldiers in the 21st century.

A lengthy and well-researched article on the subject, here:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/fit/RennFit.htm