Knights & Knaves Alehouse

People get upset about this shit?

You know what really offends me about D&D?

The institutionalization of murder and theft for personal gain. One of the major points of the game is extensive hand to hand combats with the intent to kill in order to loot to increase personal power. It's a horrible game for horrible, inbalanced, and despicable individuals.

Makes you worship the devil too.

joe b.

Geoffrey wrote:My Carcosa book is even more of a niche product than is the Book of Ebon Bindings, which is an unequalled classic of the genre. I'm also sure that it sold a lot more than Carcosa:

1st Edition print (released Oct. 8, 2008) sold 156 copies
1st Edition PDF (released Oct. 29, 2008) sold 156 copies
Expurgated Edition print (released Nov. 3, 2008) sold 17 copies
Expurgated Edition PDF (released Nov. 3, 2008) sold 36 copies
Total: 365 sold

This was posted while I was writing my last post. What criteria are you using to define The Book of Ebon Bindings as an "unequalled classic of the genre"? The fact that you own it and like it? Because, as I mentioned in my previous post, it's actually extremely obscure. It wasn't published by TSR, but by a small-press publisher, and has been been republished a couple times since by other small-press publishers, but I feel almost certain in speculating that over 32 years with all editions combined it's never sold more than a few hundred copies at most, and that at a time when mainstream rpg products were selling in the millions. Meanwhile, considering the size of the current market, 365 copies of Carcosa is a certifiable hit. Certainly even if its sold fewer total units a much larger percentage of current D&D players, and especially old-school D&D players, have copies of Carcosa than ever had copies of the BoEB. I'm almost certain that the BoEB has gotten more press and attention from being referenced in discussions of Carcosa than it ever got on its own merits in 30 years.

DungeonDork wrote:But it's OK for Satan to cornhole Miss America because she is of age.

Yes, because he's an NPC...



Remember that audio comedy sketch of Satan's Game from about ten years ago with the DM saying the PC is walking down the street with the Mountain Dew singing Rush and the other player going into sensory overload?

I think this whole thing is really fucking close to that.

Do you know how many times these evil PCs that I play with have "PPRed" a town, village, castle, etc and not once did anyone say "rape"? Seriously, that doesn't even factor in.

"Mommy, where do half orcs come from?"

DungeonDork wrote:"Mommy, where do half orcs come from?"

That depends on who answers the question...

Johnny LARP: A tragedy happened to my mother's family and they were forced to abandon me to the wilds...

Johnny Tolkien: They were bred discreetly in Isengard...

Johnny Lube: Orc template onto my Phrunfray Faeree Wizarday Swordaereon...

DungeonDork wrote:"Mommy, where do half orcs come from?"

Mommy and Daddy Half-Orcs?

You guys are killing me. My sides really hurt.

T. Foster wrote:What criteria are you using to define The Book of Ebon Bindings as an "unequalled classic of the genre"?...I feel almost certain in speculating that over 32 years with all editions combined it's never sold more than a few hundred copies at most...I'm almost certain that the BoEB has gotten more press and attention from being referenced in discussions of Carcosa than it ever got on its own merits in 30 years.

Sorry I didn't have a chance to answer until today, Trent.

1. I consider The Book of Ebon Bindings to be a classic based on its intrinsic excellence. I have never read a description of magic (whether in a RPG book or in a work of narrative fiction) that is even half as evocative. I consider Prof. Barker to be the finest fantasist in history ( http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 11&t=27929 ). I think his stuff, and his alone, transcends the RPG genre to attain the level of art.

2. I'd be very sorry to learn that The Book of Ebon Bindings sold fewer than 1,000 copies. I've always assumed (based on no evidence) that it sold in the thousands. It certainly deserves to sell more than a few hundred copies.

3. I hope that Carcosa has introduced some people to the wonders of Tekumel, which excels Carcosa in every way except for on a very minor and almost humorous point: Tekumel is a creation of such intricate genius that I have never conducted a game on Tekumel for fear that the PCs would muck it up. On that point Carcosa is superior: Since it's not a work of genius, no one would be tempted to fear that his players might screw it up.

It seems to me that nobody buys the Expurgated Version because the expurgated bits are the only part of Carcosa that anyone ever talks about. So for every person who buys the original version, there are a dozen people who steer clear of the whole stigmatized brand. In other words, I assume your overall sales numbers suffer hugely from the controversy. I feel like you never give a positive sales pitch for the Expurgated Version; you only ever mention it grudgingly. If I were you, every time the controversy comes up, instead of rising to the bait and going to great lengths to defend it, I would simply point up the Expurgated Version and tell us what’s so great about it.

Personally, I am curious enough to want to buy an Expurgated Version (also I want to send the right message), but I’ve been waiting for an opportunity to buy a print copy. Any chance of that?

jgbrowning wrote:People get upset about this shit?

You know what really offends me about D&D?

The institutionalization of murder and theft for personal gain. One of the major points of the game is extensive hand to hand combats with the intent to kill in order to loot to increase personal power. It's a horrible game for horrible, inbalanced, and despicable individuals.

Makes you worship the devil too.

joe b.

Yeah Joe I know: it may seem like I'm one of those 80's 'D&D is a sign of the End Times' guys, but it's not really like that. Hell, I wrote an adventure for Fight On! that centered on interaction with a (not the) devil and involved mass murder and human sacrifice. I'm not opposed to those themes. BUT, in my adventure the atrocities were committed by an antagonist and occurred off-stage. They were NOT compulsory actions that a player had to role-play if his character wished to acquire a certain spell. And they were not child-rape, which is absolutely taboo.

Joe, XRP is very respected in our little community, and the reason for this is because you put out good product that captures the tone and intent of our hobby. Curse of the Witch Head and Pod Caverns of the Sinister Schoom are shining examples of what OSR publishing is all about. You clearly 'get it'. So I want to ask you: if someone submitted a manuscript that - as part of the game mechanics - required the players to role-play the act of child rape to aquire something they desire (a spell for example), would XRP accept and publish it?

@Geoffrey: Thank you for providing some insight on your world view. It answered a number of questions, and I don't feel I need to pursue this with you any further.

- Wheggi

Geoffrey wrote:I consider Prof. Barker to be the finest fantasist in history.... I think his stuff, and his alone, transcends the RPG genre to attain the level of art.

This phrase, by the way, “transcends the genre,” really rubs me the wrong way. I remember people trying to convince me Harry Potter was so great, that when I told them I read a lot of fantasy and don’t see the big deal, they told me “Harry Potter is so great, it transcends the genre.” That’s crap. It’s great fantasy at best, there’s nothing transcendental about it. As if the rest of fantasy doesn’t deal with any serious issues, or isn’t art. So please, don’t say that. What is the criterion for “the level of art,” anyway? As if Gygax or Kuntz or Trampier or Otus or Jaquays or Bledsaw haven’t produced art!

Geoffrey wrote:Virtually all the inhabitants of the Five Empires of Tekumel recognize all the things in the above list as being essential and normal elements of society. Hrihayal is one of the 20 officially recognized gods. While not everybody is an adherent of her, pretty much everybody recognizes the legitimacy of her cult.

No.

In the setting of Tekumel, the acts of Hrihayal's temple are known to be deviant. That's the point, actually. Yes, her cult is a part of society, but it exists to be a place where unsavory people can go. It's like a 19th century opium den / whorehouse with a healthy helping of Clive Barker's Pinhead. What detail is present gives you an idea of the clientel.

For those unfamiliar with the setting, there are 5 gods of Order / Light and 5 of Change / Dark. Each god has 1 lesser god (cohort) who emphasizes a particular aspect of the greater god. Dlamelesh is the Chaos goddess of pleasure, Hrihayal is her cohort of sexuality. The point of Hrihayal's cult is unfettered pleasure, with all that entails. The cult is specifically described as depraved. It makes sense given the culture, theology and source material, but I've always gotten the impression there would be precious few PCs that would be tied to her temple. (Heh) About as much as the temple of Dra. It's just not a heroic let's kick ass for power and glory kind of temple.

To give some further theological context, you can think of the deities being Donblas the Justice Bringer on one side, Arioch the Knight of Swords on the other with Cthulhu at the gates of reality. A society has developed where the forces of Law and Chaos work together (in public, anyway) to make sure that Destruction at bay.

(Donblas = Hnalla, Arioch = Hru'u, Cthulhu = Goddess of the Pale Bone; it's as accurate an overview that you can get in a paragraph, I think.)

Falconer wrote:Personally, I am curious enough to want to buy an Expurgated Version (also I want to send the right message), but I’ve been waiting for an opportunity to buy a print copy. Any chance of that?

Alas, since James Raggi and I agreed for LotFP to re-publish Carcosa, I'm not selling it anymore. And even before that I wasn't selling print copies anymore because my printer broke, and I can't afford a replacement. To satisfy your curiosity a little bit, here is the old table of contents for the 96-page book:

MEN & SORCERY
Characters: page 5
Character Alignment, Including Monsters: page 7
Levels and Number of Experience Points Necessary to Attain Them: page 9
Saving Throw Matrix: page 9
Psionics: page 9
Explanation of Psionic Powers: page 10
Dice Conventions: page 11
Determining Type of Dice to Roll: page 11
Rolling Hit Dice: page 11
Rolling Damage: page 12
Getting Wounded: page 12
Healing Wounds: page 13
Comments: page 13
Sorcerous Rituals Table: page 14
Explanation of Sorcerous Rituals: page 16

MONSTERS & TREASURES
Monster Reference Table: page 34
Monster Descriptions: page 35
Carcosa Campaign Map One: printed on pages 47-48
Sorcerous Items: page 56
Desert Lotus: page 56
Space Alien Technology: page 56
Random Robot Generator: page 62
Technological Artifacts of the Great Race: page 65
Technological Artifacts of the Primordial Ones: page 66

ADVENTURES IN THE UNDERWORLD AND WILDERNESS
Mutations: page 69
Carcosa Campaign Map One Hex Descriptions: page 69

Its important to keep in mind, OSRIC/1E is alive and well as a game (its not a now vs. then thing, its more like Monopoly, it hasn't changed much since its creation. Of course, It doesn't have to be static, but it should respect and stick to the assumptions of play and setting to be "part of" that game. Remember, the setting and style of play is more a part of what 1E is then the rules themselves (at least to the players). If suddenly orcs started living in human cities without seeming odd, that would be less 1E AD&D then say if your DM started using different tables (which you wouldn't even be aware of).

Yes, I realize this is me telling you how to do it. But thats how it has to be, because I know better. Or until I'm convinced I'm wrong.

Falconer wrote:What is the criterion for “the level of art,” anyway?

I think that all other authors of RPG products have made game products, and nothing more. (Which is fine: a game needn't aim to be anything more than a game.) M. A. R. Barker's RPG products, however, are not only games but the sub-creation of a fantasy world which has only one peer: Tolkien's Middle-earth. Both of these fantasy worlds I consider to be substantive additions to the world's artistic creations, and as such deserve to be treasured and read in all eras and all places.

Baron Opal wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:Virtually all the inhabitants of the Five Empires of Tekumel recognize all the things in the above list as being essential and normal elements of society. Hrihayal is one of the 20 officially recognized gods. While not everybody is an adherent of her, pretty much everybody recognizes the legitimacy of her cult.

No.

In the setting of Tekumel, the acts of Hrihayal's temple are known to be deviant. That's the point, actually. Yes, her cult is a part of society, but it exists to be a place where unsavory people can go. It's like a 19th century opium den / whorehouse with a healthy helping of Clive Barker's Pinhead. What detail is present gives you an idea of the clientel.

Always a pleasure to discuss Tekumel.

"Every city, town, and larger village in Tsolyanu, Mu'ugalavya, and Yan Kor possess temples to all twenty of the deities." (Tekumel Source Book, page 53)

'As can be inferred, the Tsolyani concept of "good" and "evil" is more utilitarian than spiritual. Abstract "moral" principles play little part. One may adhere to "Stability" or "Change," but these are by no means to be equated with the "Good" and "Evil" (or "Law" or "Chaos") of this world. It is only when one comes to the doctrines of "noble" versus "ignoble" action that it is possible to speak of "ethical" behavior, although this, too, has little in common with present-day ideas of "good" and "evil."...When a man acts "nobly", he behaves in accordance with his Skein of Destiny, as he perceives it. He serves his God; he is loyal to those who think as he does; he is staunch in his courage; and he is forthright in his deeds...The priestess of Lady Avanthe is "noble" when she feeds the poor, assuages the pain of the aged and the sick, and supports the strictures of society. So also is the priest of Lord Vimuhla "noble" when he goes forth to bloody battle, sacrifices the daily victims upon the altar of the Flame, and burns the cities of his enemies...' (Tekumel Source Book, page 13)

In short, the people of the Five Empires do not think that human sacrifice, rape, and all the rest are "evil". In fact, they do not even think in terms of "good" and "evil". They think in terms of "noble" and "ignoble". A priest of Vimuhla who did not burn human sacrifices alive would be considered ignoble. A priest of Hrihayal who did not rape would be considered ignoble. Etc. Nor are these deities of Change worshipped surreptitiously in the shadows. No. Their temples are found in the daylight in every population center of note. Not only religious leaders, but political leaders do these things, openly and unashamed. People expect this, and they would be appalled if the numerous and systematized human sacrifices, rapes, etc. were to cease. Not everybody does these things, but everybody expects these things to be done by those whose job it is to do them.

I can't remember the reference, but Prof. Barker wrote that pretty much everybody in Tekumel would be considered "evil" by contemporary standards. When one adventures on Tekumel, he's entering an alien world. It's not merely our world with medieval technology and sprinkled with magic spells and monsters.