Why did TSR drop the ball so badly?

[geneweigel]

That is a nice list.

Its a nice list because there isn't a lot of things taken for granted in it.

Like "force fields" being an automatic concept because its a "sci-fi term" kind of "taken it for granted".

[Falconer]

I think this would be a reasonable start. The next thing to do would be to settle on one "look" and one "setting" for that look.

So what do you think?

1. Stat up Old Ben Kenobi, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and Chewbacca as PCs (not according to a “system” but just figure out relative strengths and weaknesses as a starting-point), set them loose on the Death Star and see where it takes you?

2. Stat up Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, and Dr. McCoy (same deal), and beam them down to Capella IV (“Friday’s Child”) with some security men and play out a power-struggle against Klingons and savages?

3. Stat up Captain Apollo, Lt. Starbuck, and Serina, give ’em each a Viper and send them to investigate the pyramids of the Lords of Kobol... just watch out for that Cylon Basestar (“Lost Planet of the Gods, Part II”)?

Sorry, my influences are hopelessly TV-based. (I’ve read a lot of Geoffrey’s list, but it just doesn’t excite me the same way.) My feeling is that the Star Trek races (Vulcans, etc.) are a good baseline to stand in for the Tolkien ones (sorry, but Dwarves in Space just doesn’t sit right with me), but the overall format of BG (TOS) works better perhaps (each “Colonial Warrior” has his own Viper). Firefly is a good format, too (crew of smugglers on a freighter), but the universe is too limiting (no gods and monsters). You definitely have to mix it up, ultimately, and add originality as the game takes you, otherwise you get bogged down in canon/lore, which is totally the worst danger of all.

The interesting thing about all the above possibilities is you really need a 2nd game running along-side it to handle ship-to-ship combat. Running around the Death Star is great, but you would also want to fly X-wings against it later. While Kirk is on the planet, Scotty is engaging a Klingon ship in a game of cat and mouse. And BG of all of them is the least planet-based and the most about exploring “the stars”.

[geneweigel]

What no bitta-bitta-bitta-bitta-bitta?

Yeah, while those are "greats" they would be in the "Unearthed Arcana" or rather the "Strange New Worlds" update in the slightest of forms without all the later "icing"...

[AxeMental]

I like the idea of the implied setting being informed by works such as:

REH's Almuric
Rice Burrough's Mars series and Venus series
Lindsay's A Voyage to Arcturus
some of Vance's stuff
Lewis's Perelandra and Out of the Silent Planet
original Flash Gordon strips
Clark Ashton Smith's futuristic yarns
the more sci-fi aspects of some of Lovecraft's stories

Just looking at the above, one could see that technology would be very much in the background (though definitely present). Instead of zipping between planets on spaceships, one would be just as (if not more) likely to travel to another planet by means such as wandering into a cave and then coming out of the cave only to find oneself on another planet.

Ive think you hit on something here. The key is to throw technological logic out the windo for the most part (leaving just enough to make it plausable) just make sure what you present makes some sort of sense and follows the classics somewhat, (so no spell Jammer boats flying around crap (TSRs attempts at interplanetary travel began and ended as far as D&D is concerned with that abomination), but Flash Gordon style ships is fare game and passes the "classic" test (they have some sort of propulsion system, they're made of metal etc. (the Movie FG with Sam J Jones and Queen sound Track had cool ships I thought).

Also, once you allow the random and occasional, dimensional doors and other means of travel, never mind Ming like dimensional vortex thingys or whatever the hell that was (along with classic transportation in space ships) you have effectively D&Difide the game (the spot light is once again on the PCs adventuring, spaceships and laser rifles are tools picked up and thrown down by men doing dangerous things). No longer do your players overly worry about logic. Magic and science fiction really do fit hand in hand. "Stranger in a Strange Land" is one of my favorites that seemed to meld the two in an odd way (mixing elements of sci-fi, fantasy, and logical present day).

I wouldn't limit too much with the setting, just give enough that the DM can flesh out his world. For instance, in 1E, the DM could make a tolkien setting or a Conan setting or Greek flavored or countless others and whatever mix he liked for his table and his campaign. Thats what was needed as well...flexibility within the confines of a Gygaxian straight Jacket. The 0E base is just not enough to create the feel that this is one unifide game (with expectations shared between tables). Imagine if this game had been released around 81' under the watchful (and back then consistently tasteful) Gary Gygax. Would that not have rocked GenCon to its very core? The buzz would have reached all I think.

[TRP]

Yeah, while those are "greats" they would be in the "Unearthed Arcana" or rather the "Strange New Worlds" update in the slightest of forms without all the later "icing"...

I agree with this .. I think. That is, if gene is saying what I think he's saying.

While D&D's style-of-play was inspired by Vance, Leiber, Howard et al, it was not an attempt to duplicate/simulate any of them in a game. If you're stat-ing Kenobi & Kirk from the get-go, then you're just playing either playing Star Wars or Star Trek RPGs, and the SM's (Star Master?) hands are tied in the same way as if Greyhawk modules were produced as novels first, and then D&D followed as a game to recreate those adventures.

After the game is established as it's own standalone "thing", then it's okay for it's own Giants Of The Stars articles and supplements.

[AxeMental]

Yeah, while those are "greats" they would be in the "Unearthed Arcana" or rather the "Strange New Worlds" update in the slightest of forms without all the later "icing"...

I agree with this .. I think. That is, if gene is saying what I think he's saying.

While D&D's style-of-play was inspired by Vance, Leiber, Howard et al, it was not an attempt to duplicate/simulate any of them in a game. If you're stat-ing Kenobi & Kirk from the get-go, then you're just playing either playing Star Wars or Star Trek RPGs, and the SM's (Star Master?) hands are tied in the same way as if Greyhawk modules were produced as novels first, and then D&D followed as a game to recreate those adventures.

After the game is established as it's own standalone "thing", then it's okay for it's own Giants Of The Stars articles and supplements.

Totaly agree with this.

[AxeMental]

I think this would be a reasonable start. The next thing to do would be to settle on one "look" and one "setting" for that look.

So what do you think?

1. Stat up Old Ben Kenobi, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and Chewbacca as PCs (not according to a “system” but just figure out relative strengths and weaknesses as a starting-point), set them loose on the Death Star and see where it takes you?

2. Stat up Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, and Dr. McCoy (same deal), and beam them down to Capella IV (“Friday’s Child”) with some security men and play out a power-struggle against Klingons and savages?

3. Stat up Captain Apollo, Lt. Starbuck, and Serina, give ’em each a Viper and send them to investigate the pyramids of the Lords of Kobol... just watch out for that Cylon Basestar (“Lost Planet of the Gods, Part II”)?

Sorry, my influences are hopelessly TV-based. (I’ve read a lot of Geoffrey’s list, but it just doesn’t excite me the same way.) My feeling is that the Star Trek races (Vulcans, etc.) are a good baseline to stand in for the Tolkien ones (sorry, but Dwarves in Space just doesn’t sit right with me), but the overall format of BG (TOS) works better perhaps (each “Colonial Warrior” has his own Viper). Firefly is a good format, too (crew of smugglers on a freighter), but the universe is too limiting (no gods and monsters). You definitely have to mix it up, ultimately, and add originality as the game takes you, otherwise you get bogged down in canon/lore, which is totally the worst danger of all.

The interesting thing about all the above possibilities is you really need a 2nd game running along-side it to handle ship-to-ship combat. Running around the Death Star is great, but you would also want to fly X-wings against it later. While Kirk is on the planet, Scotty is engaging a Klingon ship in a game of cat and mouse. And BG of all of them is the least planet-based and the most about exploring “the stars”.

As others have stated, no direct imitations of any of these (with names etc.), but take the best elements of all that still fit the 70s sci-fi vibe, and probably more heavily mine classic pulp for a "D&D character walking around with a space rifle blowing the crap out of giant space spiders" feel. For a space MM You'd need basics (like "lost in space's" huge iguana with fins glued to their backs walking around planets, how many shows/movies did that creature end up on, stupid looking robots) as well as classic fantasy monsters (with cool twists -maybe undead in space?) as well as damned weird stuff as well (Space 1999 had a cool tentacle monster grabbing ships I think I remember), then theres all the meaty stuff from the pulp, some of Frazetta's paintings come to mind in how to meld this all together picturally.

[francisca]

I agree with this .. I think. That is, if gene is saying what I think he's saying.

While D&D's style-of-play was inspired by Vance, Leiber, Howard et al, it was not an attempt to duplicate/simulate any of them in a game. If you're stat-ing Kenobi & Kirk from the get-go, then you're just playing either playing Star Wars or Star Trek RPGs, and the SM's (Star Master?) hands are tied in the same way as if Greyhawk modules were produced as novels first, and then D&D followed as a game to recreate those adventures.

After the game is established as it's own standalone "thing", then it's okay for it's own Giants Of The Stars articles and supplements.

Yeah. There is a large gap between "design informed by the works of [authors]" and "this game seeks to codify [fictional characters and actions]".

Inspiration, not imitation, is what we should strive for. The first is building on the foundation laid before you, the latter is aping someone else's work. Unfortunately, mass-media, and apparently, the mass of consumers prefer the monkey business.

Boy, that sounds snooty. Not what I intended, but I'm leaving it.

[Geoffrey]

...spaceships and laser rifles are tools picked up and thrown down by men doing dangerous things...

Well put.

[geneweigel]

Yeah, while those are "greats" they would be in the "Unearthed Arcana" or rather the "Strange New Worlds" update in the slightest of forms without all the later "icing"...

I agree with this .. I think. That is, if gene is saying what I think he's saying.

While D&D's style-of-play was inspired by Vance, Leiber, Howard et al, it was not an attempt to duplicate/simulate any of them in a game. If you're stat-ing Kenobi & Kirk from the get-go, then you're just playing either playing Star Wars or Star Trek RPGs, and the SM's (Star Master?) hands are tied in the same way as if Greyhawk modules were produced as novels first, and then D&D followed as a game to recreate those adventures.

After the game is established as it's own standalone "thing", then it's okay for it's own Giants Of The Stars articles and supplements.

Something that is core to STAR WARS like a saucer with a central engine and ramps is really core to old sci-fi if you jump the gun and deliver the heavily modified ship you're going to end up with corporate models in a game with useless detail. this is the mindlessness to avoid. If you really think its a must to have "models" well you know we can have that in D&D too as even ancient craftmen would make their mark on weaponry and armor. They didn't have factories back then so everything was individualized: "Lets get Garthoom's smithworks platemail model 7500 of the 7000 series for that nuance that gives a little extra damage and a little extra protection but takes away STR. Wait this guy Heeraj's Armor has a diamond coated plate option on their "Advanced Miner Plate series 31" and throws in a free "60 inched short-long sword with optional spear grip"...." Anyway thats the tendency in a lot of sci-fi games to define differences where none is needed and it drags down possibilities.

[geneweigel]

The same for "jedi" there should be no such thing let it be something for an 11th hour. You start imagining that "brand" of star god worshipper as it advanced through the STAR WARS films then as Obi-Wan would put it "then the Emperor has already won..."

I'm fine with space gods even perhaps a god that is a "field" but its got to be sans window dressing.

[francisca]

I'm fine with space gods even perhaps a god that is a "field" but its got to be sans window dressing.

Arisians and Eddorians?

[geneweigel]

Yeah, but leaning towards "lensmen" rather than "jedi" or yikes, even further into "green lanterns"...

[francisca]

Yeah, but leaning towards "lensmen" rather than "jedi" or yikes, even further into "green lanterns"...

Absolutely. i wouldn't want to play an Eddorian agent anymore than I'd want to play Heracles.

But.....the idea of the unseen hands, be they good/evil or law/chaos, as a constant foe, each stage of an overarching campaign pulling back another curtain until you drill down to the source of the conflict is very intriguing, to me, anyway, across all genres.

[geneweigel]

I think it still can be from the "new" (or rather newer) don't get me wrong just that somethings are too developed.

When Corben's DEN and DEN II (Neverwhere) series came out in HEAVY METAL and it was considered "new" only because it had naked people in it (in particular some guy who refused to wear pants) but its all based on ideas from Burroughs (Barsoom) and Lovecraft (Polaris and Cthulhu Mythos) with pinches of Howard in there. Well the HEAVY METAL movie went all over the place with the artifact from Corben tying in unrelated stories like the "space coke sniffing aliens" (which actually was taking a really different shitty story's looks and turning it into an even shittier story). So saying "HEAVY METAL" in regards to just the film is a wide scope and in regards to the magazine even wider.